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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 5:07 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2016 at 5:10 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
No, you weren't...you didn't even attempt to. You stumbled around with the first three letters of the alphabet because you have no fucking clue what you're doing in a rational conversation.
Quote:The statement that it can't be morally/good in any possible world to torture a being for no crime intensely forever and ever...doesn't follow from the statement,
Bingo...a bare assertion.
Quote: It's stated by itself but if that is the contention, we can get into a dialogue about that. If a hypothetical eternal being can decide that to be it's morality, why can't we?
I don't know...you tell me....I have to be honest with you, it seems that we not only can decide upon morality, but that we do and have done.
Quote:So do you believe we can make it so that it's good for us to torture kids for no crime, put acid on them? No. Can you even say 100% we can't decide this. I believe so.
It's not an issue of belief, nor is my belief required for people to do precisely that.
Quote: But it you accept that premise, and the "tautology", then it follows it's impossible for a Creator to create morality while it didn't always exist.
I accepted the premise that a god that creates morality can make torture moral..this is the premise you offered. Your comments do not follow from that premise, this is not open to debate. If you did not wish for this to be included in your argument...then try again..and leave this line out, huh?
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 5:13 pm
Ok...so it comes down to:
If you know it's impossible we make it that it's morally right/good for us torture intensely a child with intense torture for no crime all the way to it's adulthood till it dies.....then we know morality is eternal and eternal one who sees it existed.
You want to say we can't know it's impossible for us to make it morally right for us to do so, just decide it...then that's up to you.
Do I believe I have proven an eternal source of morality in this argument. I do.
But let's see what our LadyForCamus decides.
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 5:15 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2016 at 5:21 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Unfortunately it's still a non-sequitur. Just because we might know that a god cannot make it moral to torture a person..this does not establish or imply that morality is eternal. We can only state, from this position..that god didn't create it. That's all that follows, as far as it goes.
What you have or haven't proven is not decided by what you believe (it would be a whole hell of alot easier if it were though, eh?). The standard for proof does not depend upon your individual beliefs, and is distinct from them. You have failed, firstly, to provide a valid argument...you have failed..secondly, to establish that any portion of your invalid argument is sound. You -could not- have failed to prove your position any more completely than this, as these are the metrics upon which proof is assessed.
I think that it would be more accurate to state that you have -faithed- your position, sufficiently. On that point I would agree.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 5:19 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 5:15 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Unfortunately it's still a non-sequitur. Just because we might know that a god cannot make it moral to torture a person..this does not establish or imply that morality is eternal.
Yet another bare assertion.
The argument was to show it does. If a Creator can create morality without it already existing, it can decide it. You agreed on that. If follows if can decide it, it can make it moral to torture, etc..
However if it can't do that, and it can create the structures created by evolution, it follows that all structures created by evolution can't either.
In fact nothing can. It must be eternal.
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 5:25 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2016 at 5:28 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Then the argument fails because it -cannot- show that it does...as you've expressed it.
Further, you are presenting yet another non-squitur. Just because your god can't create morality, doesn't mean that something else can't...nor does it mean that other, previously failed assertion..that morality is eternal.
You cannot get there, from here..rationally ,Mystic. Reason does not present this opportunity.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 5:29 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 5:19 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 5:15 pm)Rhythm Wrote: Unfortunately it's still a non-sequitur. Just because we might know that a god cannot make it moral to torture a person..this does not establish or imply that morality is eternal.
Yet another bare assertion.
The argument was to show it does. If a Creator can create morality without it already existing, it can decide it. You agreed on that. If follows if can decide it, it can make it moral to torture, etc..
However if it can't do that, and it can create the structures created by evolution, it follows that all structures created by evolution can't either.
In fact nothing can. It must be eternal.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but why can't the Creator decide morality?
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 5:30 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2016 at 5:31 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Mystic either doesn't know, or can't competently express why, but apparently it's integral to his "proof"......and a whole host of other things with no stated or obvious connection.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 5:56 pm
(January 9, 2016 at 5:29 pm)Irrational Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 5:19 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: The argument was to show it does. If a Creator can create morality without it already existing, it can decide it. You agreed on that. If follows if can decide it, it can make it moral to torture, etc..
However if it can't do that, and it can create the structures created by evolution, it follows that all structures created by evolution can't either.
In fact nothing can. It must be eternal.
Maybe I'm missing something here, but why can't the Creator decide morality?
The why is in the conclusion. It's nature is eternal (God is eternal and the source of morality) and morality must be eternal necessarily. The question is how does this argument lead to that understanding? I think I've explained this many times. So perhaps you point out what you are not understanding, where exactly are you not leading up to that conclusion.
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 5:58 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2016 at 5:59 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
Still pretending that people just don't understand huh? You don't -have- a conclusion..because you do not have an argument. You have the articles of your faith, which you have been repeating ad naus.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Scientific knowledge versus spiritual knowledge
January 9, 2016 at 6:21 pm
(This post was last modified: January 9, 2016 at 6:21 pm by Red_Wind.)
(January 9, 2016 at 5:56 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: (January 9, 2016 at 5:29 pm)Irrational Wrote: Maybe I'm missing something here, but why can't the Creator decide morality?
The why is in the conclusion. It's nature is eternal (God is eternal and the source of morality) and morality must be eternal necessarily. The question is how does this argument lead to that understanding? I think I've explained this many times. So perhaps you point out what you are not understanding, where exactly are you not leading up to that conclusion.
Why can't humans be the source of their morality?
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