Another raaaaaaaaaape!!!

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Hell no, man. If her rape did really happen I won't think for a second it is justified.
What I meant to covey through that analogy and my previous posts that she was in fact partly at fault if this really did happen.

The issue is that by pointing out her mistake, which wasn't criminal, and setting it against the alleged rape, which is criminal, insinuates an equivalence.

I agree that she was stupid for putting herself in that situation. But I apportion my attention in this discussion in proportion to the gravity of the mistake. Hers was simple folly; his was criminal. giving them equal time implies equal gravity, and I think that's why you're catching so much grief.

Also, I agree with what Catholic Lady said -- beating the shit out of someone for being annoying is not a normal response at all.

If pointing out her mistake insinuated an equivalence then people should have told me that like you just did rather than swarming me personal attacks with no grounds, framing me as a women hater.
I have not said or even implied that they should be given equal time. What I said and implied was that it was partly her fault, in this particular case.
I also agree with you that beating the shit out of someone for being annoying is not a normal response, I didn't mean it is, a poorly chosen example I'll admit.

[TheRealJoeFish]

...

When I said she was wrong too, I didn't mean she was at fault for being raped, she wasn't. I meant what she did was also wrong. And it has nothing to do with putting herself in danger. Imagine this story begins the same drunk guy sober girl taking a shower, but ends in "consensual" sex. You know what that'd make her in my mind? A rapist. It doesn't excuse what he did. It doesn't make her at fault for his actions. I'm only saying I think it's morally wrong to do anything sexual with a drunk person. (Obviously there are exceptions like if you're in a relationship or something like that, but even then it's an icky grey area)

This bolded is a very important point.

Legally, if two drunk people have sex with each other, they are, under some interpretations of the law, raping each other.  It is an enormous grey area, and I think it's relatively impossible to state an appropriate legal standard.

Edit to quickly clarify: Of course, that's not what happened in this case. Inherent in the above is two drunk people having sex willingly with each other, which is not what happened here. But the point I'm trying to make is that this is a very difficult thing to pin down in terms of legal principles.

[Losty]

...

When I said she was wrong too, I didn't mean she was at fault for being raped, she wasn't. I meant what she did was also wrong. And it has nothing to do with putting herself in danger. Imagine this story begins the same drunk guy sober girl taking a shower, but ends in "consensual" sex. You know what that'd make her in my mind? A rapist. It doesn't excuse what he did. It doesn't make her at fault for his actions. I'm only saying I think it's morally wrong to do anything sexual with a drunk person. (Obviously there are exceptions like if you're in a relationship or something like that, but even then it's an icky grey area)

This bolded is a very important point.

Legally, if two drunk people have sex with each other, they are, under some interpretations of the law, raping each other.  It is an enormous grey area, and I think it's relatively impossible to state an appropriate legal standard.

It's not the same if both people are drunk. I was under the impression that she was sober. If she was also drunk, that makes the whole thing too confusing to form an opinion on and I hope I won't be asked to serve on that jury.

[TheRealJoeFish]

This bolded is a very important point.

Legally, if two drunk people have sex with each other, they are, under some interpretations of the law, raping each other.  It is an enormous grey area, and I think it's relatively impossible to state an appropriate legal standard.

It's not the same if both people are drunk. I was under the impression that she was sober. If she was also drunk, that makes the whole thing too confusing to form an opinion on and I hope I won't be asked to serve on that jury.

See quick edit above to hopefully clarify

[Losty]

It's not the same if both people are drunk. I was under the impression that she was sober. If she was also drunk, that makes the whole thing too confusing to form an opinion on and I hope I won't be asked to serve on that jury.

See quick edit above to hopefully clarify

Alcohol is a confusing factor in rape cases. I've been privy to many where I just can't form an opinion on the situation. That's why I always tell people they should only get drunk in the presence of people they really trust.

[TheRealJoeFish]

See quick edit above to hopefully clarify

Alcohol is a confusing factor in rape cases. I've been privy to many where I just can't form an opinion on the situation. That's why I always tell people they should only get drunk in the presence of people they really trust.

That is a very, very, very good rule.

[Homeless Nutter]

After the first three sentences...I have no no idea why you're saying the rest to me. If you to the story at face value, the man is a rapist. I never implied otherwise.

When I said she was wrong too, I didn't mean she was at fault for being raped, she wasn't. I meant what she did was also wrong. And it has nothing to do with putting herself in danger. Imagine this story begins the same drunk guy sober girl taking a shower, but ends in "consensual" sex. You know what that'd make her in my mind? A rapist. It doesn't excuse what he did. It doesn't make her at fault for his actions. I'm only saying I think it's morally wrong to do anything sexual with a drunk person. (Obviously there are exceptions like if you're in a relationship or something like that, but even then it's an icky grey area)

That's a fair point. I also find the idea of sex with an intoxicated person objectionable.

As I said, in my opinion - most ways in which people engage in sexual contact seems weird and dishonest. Maybe I have some form of un-diagnosed Asperger's Syndrome, because I find it difficult to comprehend the subtleties of casual sex. But it seems to me that most of these kind of encounters happen under the influence of intoxicants, to varied extent. I know people who have never had sex sober. And since we - as a society - seem to endorse such encounters, as well as consumption of alcohol (I mean - that's what nightclubs are exclusively for), why is it impossible for some people to believe, that being drunk is a natural state for intimacy? Just as they may believe, that posting online intimate and disturbing facts about themselves is a natural reaction to emotional anguish.

But as for this particular case - I couldn't tell, if I tried to figure it out. And I don't really want to.

[MTL]

If pointing out her mistake insinuated an equivalence then people should have told me that like you just did rather than swarming me personal attacks with no grounds, framing me as a women hater.

Arrrgh.

It isn't surprising that you assign part of the "fault" to her for the rape,

when you assign blame to other people for failing to spot the fact that you misrepresented yourself.

I have not said or even implied that they should be given equal time.

Equal?  Equal??  What time is she serving, pray tell???

Maybe I missed something.

What I said and implied was that it was partly her fault, in this particular case.

(bold, red, mine)

That word, "fault", is the one that is getting you into trouble.

You say the blame for the rape is 100% HIS,
but then in the same breath you turn around and say it is partly her fault.

This is a direct contradiction.

Perhaps you need to rephrase.

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

Yeah, I'm out of this thread. Don't expect me to comment on anything further. If you want an answer PM me.

[Losty]

After the first three sentences...I have no no idea why you're saying the rest to me. If you to the story at face value, the man is a rapist. I never implied otherwise.

When I said she was wrong too, I didn't mean she was at fault for being raped, she wasn't. I meant what she did was also wrong. And it has nothing to do with putting herself in danger. Imagine this story begins the same drunk guy sober girl taking a shower, but ends in "consensual" sex. You know what that'd make her in my mind? A rapist. It doesn't excuse what he did. It doesn't make her at fault for his actions. I'm only saying I think it's morally wrong to do anything sexual with a drunk person. (Obviously there are exceptions like if you're in a relationship or something like that, but even then it's an icky grey area)

That's a fair point. I also find the idea of sex with an intoxicated person objectionable.

As I said, in my opinion - most ways in which people engage in sexual contact seems weird and dishonest. Maybe I have some form of un-diagnosed Asperger's Syndrome, because I find it difficult to comprehend the subtleties of casual sex. But it seems to me that most of these kind of encounters happen under the influence of intoxicants, to varied extent. I know people who have never had sex sober. And since we - as a society - seem to endorse such encounters, as well as consumption of alcohol (I mean - that's what nightclubs are exclusively for), why is it  impossible for some people to believe, that being drunk is a natural state for intimacy? Just as they may believe, that posting online intimate and disturbing facts about themselves is a natural reaction to emotional anguish.

But as for this particular case - I couldn't tell, if I tried to figure it out. And I don't really want to.

I don't know enough about people who go around drunk screwing other drunk people to really weigh in too much. I was mostly commenting on the morality of a sober person doing sexual things with a drunk person. Which I think in many cases is technically illegal because you have no way of establishing a clear consent. The whole thing gets really grey about right here HN. It really does.

I like to drink. I also like to have casual sex. I don't care to mix the two but that's just me. I have and I didn't feel raped, but that's just one example. The scary thing about drunken sex vs drunken rape is that it's hard to judge the intentions of people when you can't get inside their mind. My policy, for myself, is never have sex with a drunk person because you'd hate to mistake their drunkeness as consent.