The Ultimate Value and the signs of it in ourselves.

[henryp]

Strawberries are not inherently delicious.  Would that make someone finding strawberries delicious paradoxical?

In the case of strawberries, we know they have properties which our tongue converts to taste....

When perceiving ourselves, what is the converter of properties of ourselves or others, that we attempt to convert and our mind perceives things, and what are the properties being converted?

Let's continue with this important discussion....but one suggestion, that is let's all try to be honest about this issue as well!

I think the two are very closely related, in that we have a biological response.  The desire to eat sugar.  The desire to be attractive.  The desire for power.  The desire to be a good person.  All of these things are rooted in positive biological feedback.  A physical reward doled out by the brain.  (different people get different rewards from different actions, as we're biologically different, of course, which is why there isn't a universal set of rules, although there is some general uniformity that can be found)

Is the taste of a strawberry so different than the endorphin rush from exercise,  or the stirring in the loins at the site of a nice pair of bazongas?  The feeling of a job well done, or a good deed done for another.  All of these things have biological feedback.  Strawberries are a little simpler to trace what and why it is happening, but I don't think there's much difference.  

Saddam likely had a lot of good feedback from Power.  Money, wealth, adoration.  What's not to like there.  I don't know about the hero stuff.  Maybe he believed it, maybe it was a self-delusion because believing the delusion had better feedback than the truth that he was a despot?  Maybe that's just how he tried to spin it to the people, to try and get some on his side?

So the property conversion, in my opinion, is just our biology thanks to evolution.  I think for the most part, you can probably figure out why someone perceives value in different ways in the same way you can tell why they like strawberries.   Psychology certainly seems to cover that.  Neuroscience as well.  Evolutionary studies.    All sorts of things address the issue in a physical way.

Her dad left. Her brain develops accordingly. Now she responds differently to older men. Your mom dies young, her favorite flowers were lilacs. Now your favorite flowers are lilacs. You have an evolutionary established fear of death. Someone presents a shaky argument for getting to live forever in happiness, your brain glosses over some of the faults in the story. I don't believe anything isn't explainable with complete knowledge.

[Mystic]

There is something deeper about value than stated so far. 

We know for example, no matter what we do, we can't give the due to our parents out of gratitude. We know we in are indebted to them.

What is this feeling of being of owning our parents more than we can do for them but none the less, that at the very least, we should do our best?

Love sees value as it is. Everything else like "postive feedback out of selfish desires" is some type of valuing giving, but like Wallym said Sadam saw value in a delusion while could not see has a despot.

I am talking true worth, true value, something truly worthy of a human being to improve and further increase in.

I am talking about that if there was to be life after death and justice, would remain and not disappear.


This was a good thread and discussion.

[bennyboy]

There is something deeper about value than stated so far. 

We know for example, no matter what we do, we can't give the due to our parents out of gratitude. We know we in are indebted to them.

No, we don't know those things. Some of us choose to believe them.

What is this feeling of being of owning our parents more than we can do for them but none the less, that at the very least, we should do our best?

You don't know what "owning" means.

Love sees value as it is.

Bullshit. You don't know what love is, or what value is.

I am talking true worth, true value, something truly worthy of a human being to improve and further increase in.

"True" in what sense? It seems extra-special to you?

I am talking about that if there was to be life after death and justice, would remain and not disappear.

And if fairies ran the world, we'd all get free gum drops.

This was a good thread and discussion.

I don't value it as highly as you seem to.

[Edwardo Piet]

The ultimate value is presence of joy strong enough to overcome suffering. The second most ultimate value is absence of suffering. The third most ultimate value is absence of pain. The forth most ultimate value is presence of pleasure.

[Nay_Sayer]

The ultimate value is presence of joy strong enough to overcome suffering. The second most ultimate value is absence of suffering. The third most ultimate value is absence of pain. The forth most ultimate value is presence of pleasure.

The 6th is finding comfortable yet affordable pants.

[Edwardo Piet]

The ultimate value is presence of joy strong enough to overcome suffering. The second most ultimate value is absence of suffering. The third most ultimate value is absence of pain. The forth most ultimate value is presence of pleasure.

The 6th is finding comfortable yet affordable pants.

99% of the time that's synonymous with the 1st.

[Mystic]

If people still can't admit they have exact accurate measurement value...

Yes then I can't prove God to you, but if you can admit that, it's been proven.

[bennyboy]

If people still can't admit they have exact accurate measurement value...

Yes then I can't prove God to you, but if you can admit that, it's been proven.

That's because it begs the question.  That's how begging the question works:

"If you believe in absolute morality, then you have accepted God."  Yeah, but I don't, and I haven't.
"If you believe that Jesus was resurrected, then you have accepted God."  Yeah, but I don't, and I haven't.
"If you believe in absolute value, then you have accepted God."  Yeah, but I don't, and I haven't.

[JackRussell]

If people still can't admit they have exact accurate measurement value...

Yes then I can't prove God to you, but if you can admit that, it's been proven.

Wiling suspension of disbelief is a mark of good fiction.

[Succubus]

If people still can't admit they have exact accurate measurement value...

Yes then I can't prove God to you, but if you can admit that, it's been proven.

You've been reading Alvin Plantinga haven't you?

This is sophisticated theology at its very best.

Not for the faint of heart.

Enjoy.