Should Gender Stereotypes be challenged?

[ErGingerbreadMandude]

1. Where I live we have a serious case of stray dogs. They aren't trained by anyone and they still display typical dog behavior - Proof that in an independent environment they grow to be how they naturally are.

2. Yes, and men display some personality traits that can be considered as feminine personality traits - traits like being caring, being emotional etc. Yes, most dogs may or may not exhibit some characters of the opposite gender - this does not make them the same of the either gender. If it did make them the same then there wouldn't a gender classification. Yes, they have similarities they however have many differences too, differences that are different enough to create a gender variation.

Finally, my point was animals like dogs(maybe there are others) follow a typical male or typical female behavioral pattern(This doesn't mean that male dogs are more aggressive than female dogs or a male dog always wins a physical fight with a female dog) what it means is that they have a typical behavioral pattern, whatever that behavioral pattern is. This is can shown by observing stray dogs(which we have a lot where I live)and their typical behavioral pattern - which they have without any social conditioning.
Thinking that stereotypical human male or stereotypical female characteristics were formed due to stereotypes is getting the concept backwards.

[vorlon13]

I guess my take on 'challenging gender stereotypes' would result in me attempting to drop my sis off at NAPA Auto Parts the next time she wants to go shopping.

I predict it won't end well.

[Homeless Nutter]

1. Where I live we have a serious case of stray dogs. They aren't trained by anyone and they still display typical dog behaviour [...]

Which is what? How do female stray dogs act differently than male dogs? You fail to provide any details - you just throw out general statements about some gender stereotypes that allegedly exist among  dogs. Well - what are they?

2. Yes, and men display some personality traits that can be considered as feminine personality traits - traits like being caring, being emotional etc.

Men display those personality traits, because their natural, human traits - not "feminine" ones. The only people who associate "being emotional" with feminity are primitive, macho posturing pricks, who need an excuse for acting like assholes.

Yes, most dogs may or may not exhibit some characters of the opposite gender - this does not make them the same of the either gender. If it did make them the same then there wouldn't a gender classification.

A what? LOL The gender classification comes from having different genitals - not from behaviour.

Finally, my point was animals like dogs(maybe there are others) follow a typical male or typical female behavioral pattern

In your head - perhaps. Dogs display all sorts of DOG behaviours - it's the human observers, keen to apply their own social norms to everything, who characterize those behaviours as "typical male" or "female".

This is can shown by observing stray dogs(which we have a lot where I live)and their typical behavioral pattern - which they have without any social conditioning.

Then observe them. Maybe then you'll be able to tell me  what stereotypical gender roles they assume - except for the obvious one, that female dogs give birth and male dogs - don't.

Thinking that stereotypical human male or stereotypical female characteristics were formed due to stereotypes is getting the concept backwards.

Right, right - so I guess black people must be lazy, unintelligent, druggy rapists, or else where did the stereotype come from?

Nonsense. Our idea of gender roles has been influenced by our society and civilization at least as much as by our "nature". You have no idea - beyond some naïve fantasy, fed to you by the Flinstones - of how our ancestors really lived - even as far as in the Middle Ages, let alone over the hundreds of thousands of years. What you call "stereotypical human male" is no more real, or similar to actual cave-people, than the Marlboro Man. You have some naïve idea of how people used to live and then you apply this as standard to modern human beings, because you think it justifies behaving in a way that happens to be convenient and easy for you.

For example - the color pink used to be associated with masculinity only a few hundred years ago, while blue was the color for females (which is why it's the color of Virgin Mary, for one example). Then some people changed it - and now thickos, who's only source of knowledge is TV will swear, that pink is "naturally" feminine and always has been.  

And anyway, MY main point was - it doesn't matter where gender stereotypes come from, if they're stupid, limiting and harmful to individuals - f*ck them and f*ck the primitives who would like to force others to assume them, for their own gratification. Our gender stereotypes mainly stem from the fact that human males are bigger and physically stronger than females - and that barely matters nowadays, because we don't rely on physical strength to do almost anything nowadays, thanks to technology and we don't endorse using physical violence within our society as a means of keeping your family in line...

[paulpablo]

Stereotypes are oversimplified characteristics, I think a lot of them are based on at least somethings that you can say are true on average.

For example the average male will be physically stronger than the average female.

I think results seem to show that black people are less intelligent than white people.

http://www.therichest.com/rich-list/poor.../?view=all

https://www.google.com/fusiontables/Data...#rows:id=1


http://www.statisticbrain.com/countries-...verage-iq/

These lists also seem to confirm the stereotype than on average Asians are very intelligent.  One of the websites says there is no concrete evidence to show that these results are due to genetic racial traits, it could be environmental and cultural.

But these are stereotypes, the definition of which is oversimplified ideas of a persons characteristics, as I said in my previous post it's wrong to judge people based on stereotypes because they are oversimplified by definition.

[Thumpalumpacus]

1. It can be scientifically proven that men have a higher testosterone in their body which are the reasons for their aggressive and competitive nature.

That is one reason, and not necessarily exclusionary.

2. It can be proved by basic observation that it is not society that dictated how men and women should function through stereotypes. Look at some animals, like say - dogs, no one taught them how boy dogs should behave or how girl dogs should behave - they have no society to impose "stereotypes" on them, yet they project distinctive characteristics that categorize them as a male and female.

Do they? Do you have studies demonstrating that male dogs are more aggressive than female dogs?

Do you understand now that people are the way they are not because of stereotypes? Stereotypes were created because people were the way they were in the first place. You're getting the concept backwards.

I think the issue is probably a little more complex than you seem to think. Human behavior lies at the nexus of phenotype and social input.There are certainly gender-based differences that likely affect the psychology of both individuals and groups of individuals.

However, arguing that because societies, for whatever reason, erect stereotypes, is no reason to laud those stereotypes, or even assume they are correct without examination deeper than what you seem to have performed.

[paulpablo]

1. It can be scientifically proven that men have a higher testosterone in their body which are the reasons for their aggressive and competitive nature.

That is one reason, and not necessarily exclusionary.

2. It can be proved by basic observation that it is not society that dictated how men and women should function through stereotypes. Look at some animals, like say - dogs, no one taught them how boy dogs should behave or how girl dogs should behave - they have no society to impose "stereotypes" on them, yet they project distinctive characteristics that categorize them as a male and female.

Do they? Do you have studies demonstrating that male dogs are more aggressive than female dogs?

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/dog-aggression-FAQs


http://thebark.com/content/what-are-diff...emale-dogs

http://www.wikihow.com/Choose-Between-Fe...-Male-Dogs


Here is a basic sites saying statistically males are on average more aggressive than females.

I'm surprised you would ask for studies demonstrating this, basic experience with most mammals like cats and dogs should be enough to know that males are usually more aggressive.

I've had cats all my life and males have bigger territory, fight way more, I've had two ginger tom cats who were the stereotype of this, scars all of their face looking like a cat version of a pirate.
Neutered males tend to show much less aggression and cut down on their territorial behaviour because obviously they don't need to go out prowling for females.

[Homeless Nutter]

Do they? Do you have studies demonstrating that male dogs are more aggressive than female dogs?

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/dog-aggression-FAQs

http://thebark.com/content/what-are-diff...emale-dogs

http://www.wikihow.com/Choose-Between-Fe...-Male-Dogs

Here is a basic sites saying statistically males are on average more aggressive than females.

None of those are studies - they're articles, at least in part based on anecdotal experience and guesswork on the part of the authors - apparently dog enthusiasts - as well as references from blogs and such. And none of them seem to be as certain of the claim in question, as you appear to be.

http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/dog-aggression-FAQs[/url

Both male and female dogs have the ability to show aggression but the statistics show that “entire” (not neutered) male dogs are more likely to show aggression than female dogs or neutered males. Unfortunately this isn’t the easy answer it might appear to be.[...]
Male dogs are not more aggressive than females, but their competitive tendencies might bring them into conflict with their owners more, which may result in aggression if not handled properly.

http://thebark.com/content/what-are-diff...emale-dogs
This one barely mentions aggression - and when it does, it makes sure not to state anything about dogs, but rather bring up behavior of monkeys, ducks and stock-brokers. If there are easily accessible studies of dogs and the influence of testosterone on their aggression - why not just state that?

Testosterone is a powerful drug, and we know it has broad-ranging effects on assertive and aggressive behavior in species as different as rhesus macaque monkeys and mallard ducks (not to mention traders on the stock market, who are more successful if they have longer ring fingers than middle fingers—which is believed to correlate with the production of male hormones in utero. No kidding.)

http://www.wikihow.com/Choose-Between-Fe...-Male-Dogs
This isn't even an article - it's some kind of quick guide for people relatively new to the subject of dogs. Scientific value of information contained here is very limited, to say the least. Still:

Though it’s not necessarily true that male dogs are always more aggressive than female dogs, the additional testosterone present in male dogs (especially male dogs that haven’t been neutered) can lead to more aggression when in tandem with low levels of socialization and obedience training.

And let's not forget that the behavior of domesticated animals is - at least to a certain extent - influenced by humans and quite different from their wild counterparts. Which is something mentioned even in some of the publications you cited.

There’s another possible influence on the behavior of male and female dogs, but this time it relates to our behavior. How much of our demeanor around dogs is based on our expectations of “maleness” and “femaleness”? I don’t know about you, but if I’m honest about it, I find myself strongly influenced by the sex of a dog. I’m not aware that it affects the way I train—I believe that, with good training, individuality trumps sex or breed differences—but I’m sure it influences my perceptions of them in general. Perhaps unconsciously, it has a significant effect on my behavior, and on the behavior of all of us with cultural expectations of how males and females are supposed to behave.

Of course - the above quote is not science. And for that matter - neither is the following:

Call me crazy, but I can’t help but believe there is something inherently different about male and female dogs that is not just a misplaced human attribution, and that goes beyond the obvious differences. My soul mate dog Cool Hand Luke seemed so male to me that I simply can’t imagine him as anything but a—well, a guy. My “real” guy Jim felt the same way too, admitting to a tiny bit of jealousy when we first started dating, an emotion he never felt around my other three dogs, all females.

I'm surprised you would ask for studies demonstrating this[...]

I'm surprised you wouldn't and that you couldn't provide any when asked. Anecdotal experiences and confirmation bias are fun and all, but that's no way to find out whether something is true, or not.

I've had cats all my life and males have bigger territory, fight way more, I've had two ginger tom cats who were the stereotype of this, scars all of their face looking like a cat version of a pirate.
Neutered males tend to show much less aggression and cut down on their territorial behaviour because obviously they don't need to go out prowling for females.

Riiight - let's forget anecdotal experience for a moment and let's find those studies, shall we?...

[paulpablo]

Well you're asking me to forget what I've seen, having been around cats all my life and having family members who have had cats and the truth is males are vastly more territorial, aggressive, fight way more, spray their scent all over their territory and so on, their muscle structure is way more enhanced than a females.

I'm in work right now so I don't have the best access to scientific info about dog aggression. Although I'm pretty sure at least one of those links I provided did include statistics about aggression in dogs

I'm on my phone right now and I can't figure out how to copy and paste links easily, but a quick Google search shows research which says gender does make a difference on wether a dog is more or less likely to be aggressive, males being more aggressive.

[Losty]

I grew up on a farm. I've never seen what you're saying with cats or dogs. Their aggression tends to vary on individual basis. Male peacocks tend to be more aggressive than females, and female ostrich tend to be more aggressive than males. None of this means anything though. Personal experience doesn't count for much by way of evidence.

[Longhorn]

So let me get this straight.

When it comes to the discrimination of women in the workplace, studies are just opinions and testimonies are not evidence...

...but if we're talking about cats, fuck research and take my personal experience as conclusive proof?