Near death experience of Howard Storm

[Mister Agenda]

No, it's not a charade at all. Some of the stuff he said contradicts my own beliefs, and I have no dog in this fight.

I just think it's silly to conclude he wasn't an atheist based on that little phrase.

More like 'the cumulative weight of everything about this guy's claim that doesn't add up'.

[Mister Agenda]

Anyone who claims to have once been an atheist and then faiks to understand the basics of atheim loses all credibility immediately.

With the caveat that it's still possible that they were an atheist. Just that they have failed to imbue their claim with credibility. A clueless person will still be clueless as an atheist.

[Mister Agenda]

I thought atheism just meant you don't believe in God/gods... no "basics" necessary.

That's all it means, you are correct, and thanks for getting that.

The process by which a theist becomes an atheist is always more informative than the mere fact that they've concluded atheism at the end of it. I don't know of a single case that wasn't based on cognitive dissonance, that uncomfortable feeling you get when you can't reconcile what you believe with what you know. My initial push away from Pentecostalism came from reading the Bible cover-to-cover, twice. I wasn't looking for inconsistencies, it was intended as an act of devotion. However, the inconsistencies were stark (particularly to a Pentecostal, they're inerrantists), and the morality was often barbaric. Reading the Bible didn't make me an atheist, that would take about 15 more years, but it cured me of being a Christian. I still believed there was some sort of God, but couldn't believe the Bible was an account of such a being. I had too high an opinion of God to believe the Bible was a result of such a being's efforts.

The Christian Evangelical stereotype of atheists is that we say we're atheists to be cool, or hip, or rebellious; or because we're mad at God, or had a bad experience with Christianity. Kind of similar to the reasons they think gays are homosexual. Believe me, the advantages of being a Christian in the USA are substantial enough not to discard just to be a cool kid. There are good reasons for atheists to be careful about who they are open with about their atheism. It's possible for any of those things to be a catalyst that starts someone on the journey to atheism, but they don't get you to sincere disbelief by themselves.

The ultimate reason that a Muslim or a Christian or whatever becomes an atheist is that they CANNOT believe anymore. They've been convinced that their religion isn't true and that there probably is no God. They can no more choose to believe God is real than they can choose to believe that the moon is really made from green cheese. Not that they can't become convinced God is real again, just that it's not something that can be turned off and on so easily.

Someone who was never a theist is a different matter. These are the atheists most likely to convert. Though many are fine thinkers, if the only reason they are atheists is that they were never taught to be theists and haven't examined their position, then they are more vulnerable to conversion. They don't know why they should be an atheist, so they don't know why they shouldn't be a theist. They may never have heard an argument for or against God until they ran into a proselytizer. But someone like this is highly unlikely to have been the angry at religious people sort, because it requires thinking about religion to get angry about it.

There is certainly a path by which Storm could have been an atheist who converted to Christianity after an NDE with all his self-reporting being honest. But some paths are more likely than others. His path seems less likely than the scenario where he exaggerates an indifference towards or rebellion against religion into atheism, with embellishments added based on commonly held inaccurate stereotypes. What almost all atheists in America have in common is a similar American experience of being an atheist, with some regional variations (I've heard that Oregon and Vermont are comfortable places to be atheists. Where I live, it's likely to result in property damage if too many people know). It's hard to see how someone goes from being the butt of theist stereotypes to a promoter of them.

[Mister Agenda]

Good grief, what ridiculous word-salad woo.  Yep, Scooby and Little Rik need to team up.  
Scoob, first you have to prove to us that god exists.  Using scientific method.  Or better yet, have him show up and say "hi".  The creator of the universe shouldn't need a word-salad-smith to explain who and what he is.   When you prove it, we can go to point number 2, prove humans have a soul.  Then there is point number 3, prove there is an afterlife.

I don't believe in any of the three, but provide quantifiable, and testable evidence and then I'll listen.

I don't think it has to be in that particular order. Proving the soul and afterlife first would go a long way, even if it didn't establish a God. And proving either a soul or an afterlife pretty much proves the other one.

[drfuzzy]

I don't think it has to be in that particular order. Proving the soul and afterlife first would go a long way, even if it didn't establish a God. And proving either a soul or an afterlife pretty much proves the other one.

True, true, good point.  The order is unimportant.  And I suppose proving that a soul exists means that . . . after life, it goes ?? somewhere.  And you could prove that a soul exists but that would not mean god exists . . .   But I need proof of SOMETHING, or all of this has less value than a Twilight fan-fiction piece uploaded by an 8-yr.-old.

[houseofcantor]

This thread has developed a certain Agenda.

[drfuzzy]

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Scooby, what religion are you?  

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 I'm proud to say that I'm a Christian, that believes in Jesus. I grew up and was baptized Catholic.

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 I've had a difficult life, and while planning my suicide, started researching what life was about, and found Jesus, which saved my life.  I actually planed to lay my neck across a train track to decapitate myself by train to commit suicide. The night before, I started researching online what it would be like to die, and found near death experiences of people that had attempted suicide and had NDEs and were sent back with a message to share. I made a promise to Jesus that I would spread my knowledge of what I learned for saving my life.

So let me see if I have this right:  1)  You were contemplating suicide, but started researching and found Jesus (even though being raised Catholic, one wouldn't think this would have been a lengthy search).  2)  Before you found Jesus, you were thinking of putting your neck on train tracks to commit suicide.  Jeebers.  Most people go for something more expedient, such as using the gun or rope or pills that are already in the house.  For example, I just had my 9mm stuck in my mouth.  I was wondering if you'd feel anything or hear anything or just be gone.  You were thinking of going to the train tracks at the right time, sticking your neck over a track, and waiting for the thump. Yikes. 3) And you didn't actually go anywhere, but got fascinated with NDE's instead.  
     --  And you're spreading the message of NDE's as a thank you to Jesus because you never went out to the train tracks?  But supposedly Jesus saved you before you learned about NDE's.  So why not just say so? Why all the outlandish NDE, OBE, alien crap?

I'm sorry that you were feeling suicidal, a lot of folks here know what that's like.  But you DO understand why that tale might raise some eyebrows, right?  Your sequence is weird.


I think it's a Poe, guys.  Either that or a weird theories troll.

[Catholic_Lady]

I don't think he's a Poe. Suicide by train tracks is unusual, but it isn't unheard of for people to kill themselves in ways that are not the usual pills/gun/wrist cutting.

A lot of people jump off bridges to die, and that's just as scary as train tracks I think.

[scoobysnack]

Why do these people never explain OBEs as a result of clairvoyance?  Oh right.  That doesn't fit the narrative.

Never considered, but found an example if you want to read through it and give us your perspective. I'll try to read after I reply to a few other people.

http://beta.jofc.org/telas/home/viewer.p...c_52_05_en

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It is not that hard for your brain to imagine doctors trying to revive you when you are dying, It seems like a given that would be the case while your dying in a hospital.

But telling the doctor specific information about the procedues used and nurses that may have come and gone that the doctor admits is accurate is more impressive. I've heard a few stories about that. 

Not that there's a pattern of people reading links, but here's one

http://www.near-death.com/science/skepti...ption.html

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Some said these couldn't have been dreams. I'm sorry, I didn't read the article, can someone tell me why not?

Just saying, though, if these could have been dreams - they were definitely dreams(assumming that the author didn't lie about the whole thing). There would be no better explanation available. All one would have to believe is that the author had all of a sudden an extraordinary recall of his dream escapades, in this particular instance.

Couldnl't tell you exactly, but everyone has had dreams, and the people that talk about NDEs and OBEs say they are more real than dreams. Just going by what they say since they are the one who claims the experience.

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No, I don't find this man's story remarkable or compelling enough to challenge my views on the possibility of a supernatural being's existence.

Incidentally, I had a near-death experience as a teen, after I and several other swimmers in the same vicinity got sucked into a rip current off the Atlantic coast. I spent the first moments trying to disentangle my hair and limbs from a hefty stranger who was attempting to use me as a life-preserver. After a wave separated us, I believed I had still had a shot at swimming to shore. 

I was wrong; I was too far out. I could only manage to swim a few strokes before a huge wave crashed over me and knocked my body under. I re-emerged, gasping for air. The cycle repeated, until I was simply unable lift my legs well enough to swim anymore; I had almost nothing left. All I could manage to do was tread water, and just barely so. I was exhausted and became overcome with grief upon the realization that I would in fact be dead within mere moments of the next wave hitting me. 

My focus did shift suddenly, and I became calm, but I did NOT see any white light, flashing colors, my own body, tunnels, strange beings or spirits, hear any voices, or sense any presence outside of my own. The single 'unusual' thing I did experience was what's commonly referred to as life flashing before one's eyes; clearly visualizing random events from my childhood, much like a movie montage. The next thing I knew, I was coming to and coughing/throwing up seawater on an orange rescue raft. The hefty guy and a few others were hanging onto the sides.

I never ascribed the life flash to anything supernatural at any point, because I assumed it occurred as a result of tremendous stress and lack of oxygen. There are scientific theories that offer perfectly reasonable explanations as to why and how things like this can occur. Here's one:

Thanks for sharing your story! I'm glad you are alive, but wonder if your experience had lasted longer, what you would have seen. I've talked with a lot of people in person who have had similar experiences, and many who claim to have been accidents, went unconsious. An old roommate of mine has been in multiple accidents, has a steel plate in his head, been in the hospital, said he found himself outside of his body standing next to his body on the ground and his destroyed motorcycle. He claims to be able to see auras, whether that's true or not. He is a strict atheist, so I guess that would be an example of someone who didn't have their life transformed, yet had an experience.

I'll check out your video after replying to a few others, and let you know what I think.

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You expect us to read and watch more material, when everything you've posted so far has contained no evidence at all? And when called on this, you have no response except "wait and see"?

You're over-compensating for having nothing of substance by trying to be mysterious.

Anecdotes are not evidence. Or rather, they are terrible evidence. If that's all it takes to convince you of things, then I can tell you loads of anecdotes, but you'll instantly dismiss them as fake because they don't line up with your narrative.

You can't seem to decide if you're just sharing your own opinion or trying to teach us something.

The science isn't settled on this phenomenon, and there is still work and studies being done. We obviously wouldn't be having this convo if it was because it would be universally understood. I would argue that we are still young in our evolution and new developments and understanding every day. Before the first person circum navigated the globe is was common knowledge the earth was flat, and anyone who thought otherwise was clearly a fool. And even then it took many more years for that to become common knowledge. And even today, we have people that believe the earth is flat, which I don't agree with at all. That's just a basic example to just ignore thousands of examples to the contrary, and wait for others to do the work for you without taking any time to read about something that contradicts your belief system, is just lazyness in my opinion. Just imagine what humanity will know in 500 years, and how many things we think we know will be proven that we didn't fully understand our world.

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There is still a lot more to say, which I will, but I'm waiting for people to read what I've posted so far, and read what they have to say about it also. I don't have all the answers, and in the end this is something for people to find out on their own, and likely it will not be until we die. I'm going to present information but we need to all accept that we perceive the reality we exist in, and everyone will have their own opinion and form their own conclusions.

I plan to talk more about the spiritual realms the earthbound realm, which is here outside of our body, the void, hell, fog, heaven, examples of veridical OBE/NDEs. I'm surprised no one has commented on the baby part of the story on the link I provided, where outside his body, he found out the baby had a broken bone, that was later verified by the doctors when the parents took him in.

What needs to be talked about is whether consciousness can exist outside the brain. Do we even know what death is, such as clinical death where the doctor determines you are dead, but somehow you come out of that state.

Anyone have the time to watch the video to hell and back, where atheists died and went to hell, and came back? It's presented by a doctor. I'm not picking on atheists here, for me it's interesting because atheists believe nothing can happen after death, which is why they are more interesting than the stories of religious people who were expecting it. Here it is again. When I have more time I'll give some more info, but I have a full time job and a lot of other priorities to take care of as well. Howard Storm is interviewed here as well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=veD9dpgwnzc

I know you can't see it, but... the first five minutes of that video is just poisoning the well.

You watch that video to learn how to convince yourself of what it is that you start off already convinced.

Or you don't watch it to shield yourself from opposing viewpoint so you can feel comfortable in your safe space.

[Fidel_Castronaut]

I think there's a difference between a safe space and a cube of batshit insanity, mate.

Maybe an oblong of rationalism? Heehee, oblong.

Also, life long 'strict' atheist here. I only eat children on Sunday's and even then only when they're in BBQ sauce,so you can tell I'm serious. If your friend doesn't follow the atheist rules on this then I'm sorry to say that he ain't a true atheist.

It's amusing when I see proponents of woo rationalizing equally compelling anecdotal evidence that contradicts their stories with skepticism. Like your addressing of Thena's story above. Her story doesn't fit with the experience of others but the reply is that maybe it would have been different had something else happened. Or, maybe it wouldn't be? And maybe it's a load of hokum?

Dunno man, if the glove fits.