Gay, Catholic and Doing Fine

[Catholic_Lady]

Adoption? 

I wouldn't have a problem with it. I still think the ideal scenario for a child would be with a good mom and dad, but having 2 moms or 2 dads who are good parents is still way better than orphanage or foster homes.

How does that fit in with the church's teachings? Wouldn't that entire relationship be a dealbreaker to get into heaven as far as the church is concerned?

Also, why do you think the ideal scenario is a "mom and dad"? There's quite a bit of positive research on that not being the case.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/24...48320.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting#Consensus

Well first there is no "deal breaker" for getting into heaven. That's not really how it works. It all depends on a person's culpability, and that is something we can't speculate on. We can't say "so and so committed ____ act so they are going to Hell," or anything like that. 

I do agree with the Church that the ideal scenario for a child is to have a mom and a dad. But between staying in the orphanage/foster homes and having same sex parents, I'd pick the latter for sure, and I don't doubt for a minute that they can't be good parents. 

I've heard studies and testimonials of both claims being made (about what family structure is better), so in the end I think it becomes a matter of opinion and which stance makes the most sense to you.

[Brian37]

How does that fit in with the church's teachings? Wouldn't that entire relationship be a dealbreaker to get into heaven as far as the church is concerned?

Also, why do you think the ideal scenario is a "mom and dad"? There's quite a bit of positive research on that not being the case.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/24...48320.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting#Consensus

Well first there is no "deal breaker" for getting into heaven. That's not really how it works. It all depends on a person's culpability, and that is something we can't speculate on. We can't say "so and so committed ____ act so they are going to Hell," or anything like that. 

I do agree with the Church that the ideal scenario for a child is to have a mom and a dad. But between staying in the orphanage/foster homes and having same sex parents, I'd pick the latter for sure, and I don't doubt for a minute that they can't be good parents. 

I've heard studies and testimonials of both claims being made (about what family structure is better), so in the end I think it becomes a matter of opinion and which stance makes the most sense to you.

There is no "deal breaker"?

Ok, so when Hitler died all he had to do to get into heaven was say "oops, my bad"?

How sick.

[Brian37]

How does that fit in with the church's teachings? Wouldn't that entire relationship be a dealbreaker to get into heaven as far as the church is concerned?

Also, why do you think the ideal scenario is a "mom and dad"? There's quite a bit of positive research on that not being the case.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/24...48320.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting#Consensus

Well first there is no "deal breaker" for getting into heaven. That's not really how it works. It all depends on a person's culpability, and that is something we can't speculate on. We can't say "so and so committed ____ act so they are going to Hell," or anything like that. 

I do agree with the Church that the ideal scenario for a child is to have a mom and a dad. But between staying in the orphanage/foster homes and having same sex parents, I'd pick the latter for sure, and I don't doubt for a minute that they can't be good parents. 

I've heard studies and testimonials of both claims being made (about what family structure is better), so in the end I think it becomes a matter of opinion and which stance makes the most sense to you.

No, there are apologists bullshit "studies" and there is the professional medial/psychological field.

http://www.teachthefacts.org/resources-p...lorgs.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_o...d_medicine

1975 THE EXPERTS  stopped calling it a disorder. AND the experts today are saying gays are not suffering because they are gay, when they suffer it is because of YOUR FUCKING IGNORANCE!

[Catholic_Lady]

@CL: Have you considered that your children may not come out to you at all, or even repress their sexuality, knowing what you will think of them?

If they are gay, I can see them having to choose between the church and their happiness.

Hi Rob. 

No, I haven't considered that. Because I plan on being a good, loving mother... and that will show by how I treat them. I won't raise my children to think that I'll stop loving them if they tell me they have an *involuntary* attraction towards particular type of people, regardless of what that is. Especially since that attraction isn't wrong in and of itself, considering it isn't freely chosen. And I certainly won't raise them to think I'll stop loving them if they do something I don't agree with. It would be like me asking you the same types of questions except if your kids became Christians, you know? I'm sure you would still be an excellent father to your kids and I'm sure you would still love them. 

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "what I think of them?" Like I said yesterday, we are supposed to feel about gay people the same way we feel about everybody else, and that is to love them. A person's sexuality shouldn't identify them or change the way we feel about them.      

Hmm, I don't see why following Church teaching and happiness have to be mutually exclusive. After all, we are commenting on a thread where a gay Catholic man is talking about how happy and fulfilling his life is...

[Catholic_Lady]

Well first there is no "deal breaker" for getting into heaven. That's not really how it works. It all depends on a person's culpability, and that is something we can't speculate on. We can't say "so and so committed ____ act so they are going to Hell," or anything like that. 

I do agree with the Church that the ideal scenario for a child is to have a mom and a dad. But between staying in the orphanage/foster homes and having same sex parents, I'd pick the latter for sure, and I don't doubt for a minute that they can't be good parents. 

I've heard studies and testimonials of both claims being made (about what family structure is better), so in the end I think it becomes a matter of opinion and which stance makes the most sense to you.

There is no "deal breaker"?

Ok, so when Hitler died all he had to do to get into heaven was say "oops, my bad"?

How sick.

That's not what I meant. What I meant is that we cannot determine a person's afterlife fate based on what they've done. It depends on the person's culpability while doing those things, and we do not know what a person's culpability is because we cannot read their minds.

[LadyForCamus]

Well first there is no "deal breaker" for getting into heaven. That's not really how it works. It all depends on a person's culpability, and that is something we can't speculate on. We can't say "so and so committed ____ act so they are going to Hell," or anything like that. 

I do agree with the Church that the ideal scenario for a child is to have a mom and a dad. But between staying in the orphanage/foster homes and having same sex parents, I'd pick the latter for sure, and I don't doubt for a minute that they can't be good parents. 

I've heard studies and testimonials of both claims being made (about what family structure is better), so in the end I think it becomes a matter of opinion and which stance makes the most sense to you.

There is no "deal breaker"?

Ok, so when Hitler died all he had to do to get into heaven was say "oops, my bad"?

How sick.

Right. I know this topic has been beaten to death, but this is exactly why I laugh when theists say that atheists can't know right from wrong, or that we have no incentive to be moral. What incentive is there for a Christian when they know they've got a divine mulligan in their pocket that they can use at any time; even in the final moments of a life spent causing nothing but pain and suffering to others?

The moral of the story? As a Christian, you can do what ever you want, as long as you apologize. It's a lot like telling your kid he can't come out of 'time out' until he says he's sorry.

[Brian37]

There is no "deal breaker"?

Ok, so when Hitler died all he had to do to get into heaven was say "oops, my bad"?

How sick.

That's not what I meant. What I meant is that we cannot determine a person's afterlife fate based on what they've done. It depends on the person's culpability while doing those things, and we do not know what a person's culpability is because we cannot read their minds.

Of course that's not what you meant. Once you swallow "god can do what he wants", you can move the goal posts to justify anything.

Nope sorry, your words were "no deal breaker". Make up your mind.

Now let me give you AGAIN, the real reason both you and I know Hitler was a monster.

Because humans  evolved with empathy. NOT A MAGIC BOOK.

Hitler succeeded because he bought the idea and sold the idea that Germans were God's master race. He was NO atheist. "Gott Min Uns" is on the NAZI belt buckles. And he quotes God in "Mien Kampf".

Nope sorry if you are going to claim "no deal breaker", then that leaves Hitler open for for forgiveness. And let me remind you your Bible has God killing off the Egyptian first born and causes a world wide flood, which can only be called by definition an act of genocide, I find it absurd to claim Hitler couldn't be forgiven, in terms of being logically consistent. So, if you rightfully condemn Hitler, why does god get to murder humans in mass unless we are merely his lab rats?

If nothing happens or cant happen that God does not want happening, then god wanted those 6 million Jews dead. If he has a reason for not stepping in, and that is part of his "plan", then the Holocaust was supposed to happen. 

Now again, I hate that fucker, he was a monster. But you fail to see once again, just like on the issue of gays, how bad logic leads you to justify anything you want, including ignoring your flawed logic.

AGAIN, just like the issue of gays, your old book does not explain in biological reasons why Hitler was a monster. Just like you cant understand why being gay is not a disorder. You are basing your morality on an old book.

[robvalue]

Thanks for your answer CL

Well, if your kid turns out gay but wants to follow the same beliefs as you, that means it will never be able to have sex? Is that right?

Im glad to hear you will love them above everything else. I didn't doubt that. My concern is that telling them you think gay sex is "immoral" would be sending mixed messages. And not just you, but the whole Catholic Church in general, would have this opinion of them, and the only other option is celebacy. Since the latter is wholly unrealistic, they are bound to feel shame having to go against catholic teachings every time they want to have sex.

The only other thing is to not be Catholic, but that still won't change your opinion of what they do. So I'm wondering how you will put all this, so as to make your true intentions clear. Even if you don't say any of this explicitly, they are bound to figure it out from Catholic teachings.

I'm not trying to be difficult, I'm genuinely concerned about what might happen in such a very plausible scenario. If I put myself in their shoes, even given the lovely person that you are, I could see myself not coming out or even denying my sexuality. I'm trying to see how this could be avoided.

[drfuzzy]

@CL: Have you considered that your children may not come out to you at all, or even repress their sexuality, knowing what you will think of them?

If they are gay, I can see them having to choose between the church and their happiness.

Hi Rob. 

No, I haven't considered that. Because I plan on being a good, loving mother... and that will show by how I treat them. I won't raise my children to think that I'll stop loving them if they tell me they have an *involuntary* attraction towards particular type of people, regardless of what that is. Especially since that attraction isn't wrong in and of itself, considering it isn't freely chosen. And I certainly won't raise them to think I'll stop loving them if they do something I don't agree with. It would be like me asking you the same types of questions except if your kids became Christians, you know? I'm sure you would still be an excellent father to your kids and I'm sure you would still love them. 

Also I'm not sure what you mean by "what I think of them?" Like I said yesterday, we are supposed to feel about gay people the same way we feel about everybody else, and that is to love them. A person's sexuality shouldn't identify them or change the way we feel about them.      

Hmm, I don't see why following Church teaching and happiness have to be mutually exclusive. After all, we are commenting on a thread where a gay Catholic man is talking about how happy and fulfilling his life is...

Well, CL . . . I wish that my very religious mother had been more like you.  She told me to never darken her door again, never write, never call - (this was back in 1988) - because I'm gay. Most of what you have posted on the matter has seemed quite sane to me.  

With one exception: the acceptance of the Church's requirement that a homosexual person be celibate.  You keep defending that one.  Even though you know that being gay is not a choice.  So, as folks have said before, you're essentially saying that God made this person to be attracted to someone of the same sex, but that attraction is evil, therefore, this person can never have sex. And you apparently don't see any problem with this, because you're normal and properly married and it doesn't apply to you.  Spend one day in my shoes and I guarantee you that you'll be re-considering that position.  

It is possible that a gay male who is Catholic COULD be happy being celibate.  If he is, it's because he's basically asexual, not because of anything the church requires. It's possible that he, like me, is celibate by circumstance and not by choice.  Have the right guy come along and church or no church, he'll change his tune instantly.

[Divinity]

How would you feel if your child was gay, and because they felt like an outcast because of the church they committed suicide? Because a lot of gay teens are committing suicide, and the church is strongly linked as a contributing factor. When they hear maggots like athrock using words like 'disorder' to describe them, and bastards like Pope Nazi XVI call them a defection of nature, how could it not affect them? Consider what that does to a person who is raised to believe in this kind and all loving god, who are raised to believe that it's the 100% truth. Then when they discover they are gay -- and yes, discover. They do not make a decision to be gay. When they discover they are gay, they have feelings of shame and they feel they are wrong inside. When there's not a damn thing wrong with them.

Christian doctrine is simply put outdated. Going 2000 years without an update, sans the wacky mormons, will tend to do that. "Gods" perfect laws aren't perfect any more. They do far more harm than good. When a book includes stoning people for picking up sticks on Sunday... it's not exactly a book that you should get your morality from.