Gay, Catholic and Doing Fine

[Esquilax]

No one in the Catholic Church is forcing ANYONE to be celibate. What the Church IS doing is trying to help those who are homosexual find a path toward God that will result in eternal life.

I'm not going to play games with you. "Be celibate or your sinful lifestyle will put you in hell," which is what you explicitly acknowledge in your second sentence to be the case, is forcing celibacy on people based on a threat.

Regardless, I love how you, true to the dodgeball tactics of christians everywhere looking to avoid accountability, took one sentence out of my long response to reply to and ignored everything else. You're not going to be able to distract from the bulk of my criticisms by faux-answering one of them.

[Mister Agenda]

In other words, you're just being an asshole.

I'm just trying to fit in.

Just be yourself. I bet no one will be able to tell the difference.

[Angrboda]

I'm just trying to fit in.

Just be yourself. I bet no one will be able to tell the difference.

I think that was a slur that atheists are rude and impolite, but I could be mistaken.

[athrock]

I'm going to try to avoid cursing for a post.  That's unusual for me, because every other word that comes out my mouth is something you can't say on television.  But I'm going to, in order to try to be polite.  I don't extend this courtesy often.

You might want to give that some thought.

I don't think Christians (and I call out Christians, but this can be said of people of all religions, and even some Atheists who view Homosexuality as unnatural or immoral, but I mainly call out Christians here because the majority of the push back against lesbians, gays, and transgender in the United States are in fact Christian) realize the harm they do with the theology they have that states that Homosexuality isn't normal, and that Lesbians and Gays should remain celibate.

I hope you recognize that most of the most vocal pushback comes not from the Catholic Church but from Protestant denominations - especially insignificant little fundamentalist groups who make the nightly news because of their extremism and not because of their impressive accomplishments in other areas.

The Catholic Church pushes back against Gay Marriage and against Gay Adoption.  They call it "Defending the Family".  I find this incredibly offensive.  To suggest that a man who marries a man, or a woman who marries a woman is not REAL marriage should be an insult not just to Gays and Lesbians who are married, but to everyone else who is married and not part of the Christian Faith.  Christians neither invented marriage, nor do they have a monopoly on it.  Their claim that their God created marriage is unfounded for marriage has been around as a concept in many different cultures.  "Defending the family" is equally offensive because it suggests that what gays and lesbians have when they are married are not a REAL family, just as they suggest their marriage isn't a REAL marriage.  

Yes, you are offended. Having our sins pointed out offends all of us. So what?

God created man and woman and declared that the two become one flesh. Marriage, real marriage, is permanent. This is a tough concept for a culture that is accustomed to or has a preference for serial monogamy. Again, so what?

So, while Christians didn't invent marriage, they are correct in defending God's definition of what marriage is intended to be. And no one does this better than the Catholic Church.

Consider the implications of saying that their family is not a REAL family.  If my daughter and her wife chose to adopt, then by the teachings of many faiths, they would not be considered a family.  

Many faiths? So, not just Christians then? Hmmm...THAT should tell you something.

Is this not a bigoted thing to say?  To claim that someone isn't a family because of their gender preference?  

Would it be better that we keep silent instead? "Well, she's going to hell, but I don't want to be rude by pointing that out..."

Sorry, Divinity, but people of faith are being consistent when they warn others about the things that offend God. Just as you would warn your daughter if you thought something was harmful to her. You just don't like hearing what people of faith are saying.

Do you not see the harm done, telling a child that their adopted mothers aren't really their family?  That they'd be better off in an orphanage than to be with someone they love?  

The child should have been protected from being adopted by lesbians in the first place. I don't say that the lesbians don't love their daughter, but to say that harm would be done NOW is obvious. The horses are already out of the barn. But the barn door never should have been opened in the first place. And the child could have been adopted by a loving heterosexual couple instead. No need to invoke images of Dickensian orphanages, please.

That's not just an attack on gay people, but an attack on children as well.  The same children that the Catholic Church and other Churches claim to be looking out for when they try to ban abortion (including in cases of rape) The implications aren't meaningless.  They have real effects.  On children, teenagers, and even adults.  Even if they don't believe in the same god, it has an effect on them.  A very real effect.  I would know because I've worked with a lot of gay teens who felt like they didn't belong because of their parents religion.   These people live in a world where a lot of people are already bigoted against them.  This makes them vulnerable.  It's insulting what they do.  

The implications of these things are anything BUT meaningless. But you fail to consider the eternal, spiritual consequences of these things.

I will forever fight against the attitudes that homosexual activity is somehow 'immoral'.  Because it's not immoral, and teaching children and teenagers and adults that it is, is harmful.  Every time I hear someone tell me that their parents don't accept them, or that their parents think that there's something wrong with them because of their attraction to the same gender, my heart breaks.  It breaks because I know how hard it is for teens out there.  I know all too well what being ostracized feels like, having been a teen mother.  It's not acceptable to me that someone can claim that they are okay with gay people, so long as they remain celibate.  It's not acceptable to me that someone can claim someone is immoral just because they have sex with the gender they are attracted to.

And you will lose the fight because God is in command, not you.

However, I would agree with a fight against discrimination against homosexuals...which is not the same thing.

And in this regard, the Catholic Church is your ally and not your enemy. LEARN. THIS.

I have a big problem with the churches views on homosexuality.  They try to handwave the bigotry.  Some of them try to claim bigotry toward them because of a lack of tolerance for their intolerance.  But they don't get to handwave it.  Softer bigotry is still bigotry.  All people yearn for acceptance.  Those who find it hard to find yearn for it most of all.  Furthermore, the churches softer bigotry is used to justify the harsher bigotry we have out there.  The parents who don't accept their children at all because they are gay.  The church justifies that, intentional or not.  That's the effect of the soft bigotry that isn't outright hate, but subtle disdain.

I will always speak out against those people (I always speak my mind whether people like it or not)  I will always speak out against those who would call them immoral for choosing to have sex with a consenting adult of their preferred gender.  I've seen the effects.  Some people are blind to them, others choose to ignore them.  But they're there.  They are the elephant in the room, they cannot just be ignored.  My daughter is a wonderful person who is always helping others.  Not so that she looks better to her friends, or because she thinks she'll be rewarded for it in the next life.  but because she has compassion.   That they would call her immoral because she has sex with her wife is what I'd consider immoral.  And yes, I think the Catholic Church is immoral.  I think most Christian churches are immoral.  It's why I'm not a Christian anymore.  I recognize the intolerance, and the bigotry.   I wouldn't think that's what your Jesus would want.  And if he would, then I would say a few choice words to him that would not be the politely extended courtesy that I've given here.

So, you're not a Christian anymore because God won't let you have something you want. You stormed out of the church, and now you shake your fist at Him and hurl your choice words at the sky because you're angry at Him.

He loves you no less for all that.

[Divinity]

So, you're not a Christian anymore because God won't let you have something you want. You stormed out of the church, and now you shake your fist at Him and hurl your choice words at the sky because you're angry at Him.

No, I'm not a Christian because I realized that the bible is pretty fucking stupid, and there's absolutely no reason to believe a goddamn word it says.  I realized that the God everyone talked about, the god that 'loves everybody' wasn't the same god that everyone believes in.  Because that god doesn't love everyone.  It's not unconditional love, it's VERY conditional.  So I say fuck off with that.  It's too fucking stupid for me.

I'm not shaking my fist at your god, because your God doesn't exist. I'm shaking my fist at your stupid fucking religion, started by people over two thousand years ago that people today believe in for pretty stupid fucking reasons.

[athrock]

Well here's the problem. The New Testament, in the section written by Paul and Associates says to treat them badly. It's not a matter for interpretation, I quoted it to you. It's just like that section on excommunication that the Church would rather bury and ignore.

I was following you reasonably well until this point.

How is it that Paul tells us to treat women badly? By not allowing them to teach in Church? Ah...poor things. They can't stand up and preach. Seriously? That's your idea of treating women badly?

And how is it that Jesus missed an opportunity to teach on divorce? When asked about divorce,

Matthew 19:8
Jesus replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning.

Jesus upheld God's original intent expressed by the prophet, Malachi:

Malachi 2:16
16 “For I hate divorce, says the Lord the God of Israel, and covering one’s garment with violence, says the Lord of hosts. So take heed to yourselves and do not be faithless.”

Chastity and homosexuality

2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,141 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."142 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.

2358 The number of men and women who have deep-seated homosexual tendencies is not negligible. This inclination, which is not freely chosen, constitutes for most of them a trial. They must be accepted with respect, compassion, and sensitivity. Every sign of unjust discrimination in their regard should be avoided. These persons are called to fulfill God's will in their lives and, if they are Christians, to unite to the sacrifice of the Lord's Cross the difficulties they may encounter from their condition.

Homosexual persons are called to chastity. By the virtues of self-mastery that teach them inner freedom, at times by the support of disinterested friendship, by prayer and sacramental grace, they can and should gradually and resolutely approach Christian perfection.

What I want to highlight here is the fact that nearly all of this doctrine completely ignores the Bible, and gives incorrect information (claiming the psychology is unexplained). It's also self-contradictory. The Bible says, in the New Testament no less, that it is caused by disobedience in God. Make of that what you will.

I disagree with your conclusions regarding the Catechism's statement, but I do thank you for posting it so that the LGBT community in this forum can see clearly that the Catholic Church teaches that they must be "accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity" - the very point the author of the article in the OP made.

[athrock]

Feel what way about gays? We are supposed to "feel" about them the same way we feel about everyone else - which is to love. "May he who has never sinned cast the first stone," and all that. Especially since I said being gay is not immoral.  

As for homosexual activity, yes, a practicing/devout Catholic should adhere to official Church doctrines regarding faith and morals, and that includes Church teaching on human sexuality - in which we believe sex is reserved for husband and wife. Of course, any Catholic has the right to not believe in it if they don't want to, but then they would be what you guys call Cafeteria Catholics - not devout/practicing.

Thanks for the answer

I find that phrase "should adhere" scary. Why would you want to be told what your opinion is about something?

If your doctor knows more about heart disease than you do, would it be "scary" for you to be "told what your opinions" about diet and exercise should be?

[Brian37]

AGAIN, other people quote different holy books, so what.

You have not a lick of evidence that your god exists even before you get to the first word. And the crap in that comic book is not backed up by science, and as much as you would like to believe it is a moral guide, it is far from one. It is a gang manual.

Nobody is angry at something that does not exist, but yes, we are angry at the bad logic that allows you to cling to such an old comic book. That was then, this was now. We know better now.

[LadyForCamus]

Why are you so angry?

Athrock asked this question of LadyforCamus, but I'd like to answer it too, because I think it'd be informative and might explain why I was so short with CL too, which I kinda hate to do for otherwise extremely nice people.

I'm a young person. I turn 25 this weekend, so I wasn't around for a lot of the really awful stuff, but I'm still a part of the LGBTQ community, and I've seen, and listened, and heard what others within it have to say. The gay/straight alliance at my university lost a member to suicide while I was there. Good friends shared their stories of dealing with bigotry, and the bruises (sometimes literal, other times not) that it left behind. Old girlfriends and boyfriends tell me of the adverse reactions of family, the hostility and dismissiveness that came simply from them living their own authentic lives. I've seen the suffering that comes of religious bigotry, not just in the suicides and deaths and beatings, but in the dislocation of families, the divisions between friends, the small, alienating moments that all add up into one big communal voice saying "you do not belong."

So when I see an otherwise lovely person like CL call her beliefs "just her opinion," or a gay christian shrugging their shoulders and saying that the church is just fine because their congregation is accepting of them, I just want to shake them. Not just because of the very real misery they're discounting out of hand with their nonchalance, but because they're apparently unaware of the valuable role they play in perpetuating the same bigotry they claim doesn't exist in their religion.

CL, you are the shield that the real bigots hide behind to escape negative responses to their actions. You are the "good christian majority" of kind, normal, compassionate human beings that mask the vitriol and hate of those causing real suffering, the crowd of good people that they retreat to after punching us in the gut, feigning the same smile that you genuinely wear. You are the empty cup in the shell game we in the LGBTQ community have to play with the religious, the one they look under when they force us to undergo their little "find the bigotry" test, whereupon they'll say "whoops, there's no bigotry under this cup! Sorry friend, maybe it just plum doesn't exist?"

You are what real bigots point to, from atop mountains of bodies and oceans of tears, from the wreckage of broken families and depressed young people and every gay couple struggling for acceptance, you are always there for them to point to and ask us: "what do you mean, the church's stance on homosexuality is harmful? Look at her! She wouldn't hurt a fly, and she's catholic!"

That's why I'm angry. You and all the good people like you are unwitting pawns in a manipulative game played by those in power within your religion, and every time you choose to say the words that make their case, or remain blind to the destruction both large and small being done in your name, the implication is that your church's beliefs are more important than the lives and well being of those being ground down on its behalf.

You're being used, and you choose not to see it.

That was a beautiful response, Esquilax. I'm glad you shouldered the burden of answering that question before I got to it. 'Blind' is a good way to describe what you are talking about, especially in the OP's case. It's like having a verbally abusive parent who tells you: 'you are a weird little misfit so you can't expect to have the same rights as other normal people, but don't worry, we will still love you as long as you understand that your place is over there on the outside.'

The Church might as well be calling him Quasimodo, and making him live in the bell tower, but instead of being infuriated and indignant, the OP is grateful to this church for accepting him despite his "damaged" condition, and happy to forfeit his natural born right as a human to personal happiness of the fullest extent possible.

This was somebody's self-worth, slowly and purposefully chipped away over many years, and he can't even see it. Blind is right.

[LadyForCamus]

Athrock asked this question of LadyforCamus, but I'd like to answer it too, because I think it'd be informative and might explain why I was so short with CL too, which I kinda hate to do for otherwise extremely nice people.

I'm a young person. I turn 25 this weekend, so I wasn't around for a lot of the really awful stuff, but I'm still a part of the LGBTQ community, and I've seen, and listened, and heard what others within it have to say. The gay/straight alliance at my university lost a member to suicide while I was there. Good friends shared their stories of dealing with bigotry, and the bruises (sometimes literal, other times not) that it left behind. Old girlfriends and boyfriends tell me of the adverse reactions of family, the hostility and dismissiveness that came simply from them living their own authentic lives. I've seen the suffering that comes of religious bigotry, not just in the suicides and deaths and beatings, but in the dislocation of families, the divisions between friends, the small, alienating moments that all add up into one big communal voice saying "you do not belong."

So when I see an otherwise lovely person like CL call her beliefs "just her opinion," or a gay christian shrugging their shoulders and saying that the church is just fine because their congregation is accepting of them, I just want to shake them. Not just because of the very real misery they're discounting out of hand with their nonchalance, but because they're apparently unaware of the valuable role they play in perpetuating the same bigotry they claim doesn't exist in their religion.

CL, you are the shield that the real bigots hide behind to escape negative responses to their actions. You are the "good christian majority" of kind, normal, compassionate human beings that mask the vitriol and hate of those causing real suffering, the crowd of good people that they retreat to after punching us in the gut, feigning the same smile that you genuinely wear. You are the empty cup in the shell game we in the LGBTQ community have to play with the religious, the one they look under when they force us to undergo their little "find the bigotry" test, whereupon they'll say "whoops, there's no bigotry under this cup! Sorry friend, maybe it just plum doesn't exist?"

You are what real bigots point to, from atop mountains of bodies and oceans of tears, from the wreckage of broken families and depressed young people and every gay couple struggling for acceptance, you are always there for them to point to and ask us: "what do you mean, the church's stance on homosexuality is harmful? Look at her! She wouldn't hurt a fly, and she's catholic!"

That's why I'm angry. You and all the good people like you are unwitting pawns in a manipulative game played by those in power within your religion, and every time you choose to say the words that make their case, or remain blind to the destruction both large and small being done in your name, the implication is that your church's beliefs are more important than the lives and well being of those being ground down on its behalf.

You're being used, and you choose not to see it.

I don't think you know Jesus Christ or His Catholic Church at all. 

And you choose not to see.

Wow, what a vacuous response. As vacuous as your stupid book.