Liberal Movement in Islam or Western Islam, the fight against islamic extremism

[LastPoet]

Holy necropost Batman! This one with almost 10 years rotting, it's only bones

[The Grand Nudger]

It is getting old, isn't it, though the intervening years have shown that optimism about a trend of improvement in islam was misplaced. It's gotten worse since.

[WinterHold]

Turkey is usually held up as the standard secular/muslim state, seems to be a lot better than most of the others but I stand to be corrected.

It does have a better human rights record than most other nations in the area, but the Middle East is one of the biggest hellholes on Earth now, so that isn't saying much. Especially given that Turkey, well, they not only haven't come to terms with the Armenian Genocide, but they've passed laws that mean you can go to jail for years for acknowledging it happened. Admittedly, the law wasn't commonly enforced (although one Nobel laureate was prosecuted) and it's kind of in limbo, and eve when it was prosecuted, I can't find any cases where the defendants were sentenced to proper jail time (the most I've found was 1 year suspended), but the fact that this is even a possibility is a big black mark against Turkey.

The problem is that the countries accusing Turkey of the genocide did commit massive genocides themselves. Which created a tidal-lock; AKA a "Tu quoque argument".

In slang, one would say: "You butchered a whole race of native Americans then threw an atomic bomb on Japan then butchered thousands in Vietnam then spread your crimes to Iraq..and after that you dare to accuse me with genocide?".

Afterwards, Turkey gave Syrian civilians haven when Americans and the west and Russia gave them gangs, accompanied by unlimited support to Assad.

The only "messed up" thing here is the flaming of sectarian wars in the Middle East to gain prophet, supporting mass genocides in the region too.

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Holy necropost Batman! This one with almost 10 years rotting, it's only bones

It relates to today though; doesn't it?
Thank God for the written word that remind people with what they said once.

Even 1000 years are not enough to bury false beliefs.

[Rev. Rye]

The problem is that the countries accusing Turkey of the genocide did commit massive genocides themselves. Which created a tidal-lock; AKA a "Tu quoque argument".

In slang, one would say: "You butchered a whole race of native Americans then threw an atomic bomb on Japan then butchered thousands in Vietnam then spread your crimes to Iraq..and after that you dare to accuse me with genocide?".

Afterwards, Turkey gave Syrian civilians haven when Americans and the west and Russia gave them gangs, accompanied by unlimited support to Assad.

The only "messed up" thing here is the flaming of sectarian wars in the Middle East to gain prophet, supporting mass genocides in the region too.

Dude, your argument itself is a tu quoque. Yes, many of the people calling Turkey out for the Armenian Genocide come from nations that have committed genocide (although I can't find any sign of Armenians themselves committing genocide, and they're the ones most vocal about it), but the difference there is that, many of those nations, you can actually talk about the bad shit their own nations have done without fear of prosecution. And some nations, like Germany, have gone above and beyond in their attempt to try and make it right (things like taking responsibility for their own fuckups on a national level [personal levels are another story, I freely admit], giving reparations to Israel, and clamping down on any attempt to revive the Nazi ideology.)

[Deesse23]

I see Atlass still does not understand the tu quoque fallacy.

Countries who have commited genocide on the american continent accusing turkey of the Armenian genocide is no tu quoque fallcy.
Turkey accusing other countries of genocide in Vietnam etc. in order to excuse/deflect its own armenian genocide, that is a tu quoque fallacy.
Its perfectly ok to accuse someone of stuff you committed yourself, given the fact that you acknowledge that your own doings were wrong. The tu quoque fallacy is trying to avoid this.

There is no "grid-lock", just one side being hypocritical.

[WinterHold]

The problem is that the countries accusing Turkey of the genocide did commit massive genocides themselves. Which created a tidal-lock; AKA a "Tu quoque argument".

In slang, one would say: "You butchered a whole race of native Americans then threw an atomic bomb on Japan then butchered thousands in Vietnam then spread your crimes to Iraq..and after that you dare to accuse me with genocide?".

Afterwards, Turkey gave Syrian civilians haven when Americans and the west and Russia gave them gangs, accompanied by unlimited support to Assad.

The only "messed up" thing here is the flaming of sectarian wars in the Middle East to gain prophet, supporting mass genocides in the region too.

Dude, your argument itself is a tu quoque. Yes, many of the people calling Turkey out for the Armenian Genocide come from nations that have committed genocide (although I can't find any sign of Armenians themselves committing genocide, and they're the ones most vocal about it), but the difference there is that, many of those nations, you can actually talk about the bad shit their own nations have done without fear of prosecution. And some nations, like Germany, have gone above and beyond in their attempt to try and make it right (things like taking responsibility for their own fuckups on a national level [personal levels are another story, I freely admit], giving reparations to Israel, and clamping down on any attempt to revive the Nazi ideology.)

AtlasS33 said:

The problem is that the countries accusing Turkey of the genocide did commit massive genocides themselves. Which created a tidal-lock; AKA a "Tu quoque argument".

My argument is a mere description of the moral tidal-lock resulting from the Tu quoque argument used against Turkey.

A tu quoque is -in other words-: "justifying one's crimes by pointing to the other side's crimes".
Yes it is a tu quoque tidal-lock. The more power and independence Turkey has, the more it will throw the genocides of the west in its face.

Isn't the foes of Turkey commit tu quoque themselves? I mean western superpowers are justifying their massacres against the native Americans by pointing at China, Turkey and other countries.

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I see Atlass still does not understand the tu quoque fallacy.

Countries who have commited genocide on the american continent accusing turkey of the Armenian genocide is no tu quoque fallcy.
Turkey accusing other countries of genocide in Vietnam etc. in order to excuse/deflect its own armenian genocide, that is a tu quoque fallacy.
Its perfectly ok to accuse someone of stuff you committed yourself, given the fact that you acknowledge that your own doings were wrong. The tu quoque fallacy is trying to avoid this.

There is no "grid-lock", just one side being hypocritical.

Many western powers -especially America- are

accusing other countries of genocide in Armenia etc. in order to excuse/deflect its own native American genocide, that is a tu quoque fallacy.

That is the tidal-lock. It can go on forever, back and forth.

[Deesse23]

Many western powers -especially America- are

accusing other countries of genocide in Armenia etc. in order to excuse/deflect its own native American genocide, that is a tu quoque fallacy.

That is the tidal-lock. It can go on forever, back and forth.

No, they are not.
Germany admits to the jewish genocide. The US admits to the genocide of north american indians. The colonial powers Spain and Portugal acknowledge the genicode of the south american indians.

The tu quoque fallacy is always a response * to an accusation, a defense, its never the accusation itself. Its intended to avoid/stop any further discussion about an unpleasant topic. Have you ever seen an amercian politician answering when asked (by Turkish media) about indian genocide by saying: "But...but look, at the Turks commited genocide on the Armenians too!"? You havent.

You dont understand the difference between being hypocritical and accusing someone else of being hypocritial. You dont understand the tu quoque fallacy. You probably have heared of it, think accusing others of it a nice tool to bog down conversations about unpleasant (for you) topics, and now you are tossing it around like salad in a bowl everytime. And because you are tossing it around in order to stop any discussion about genocides like the armenian one, Rev.Rye is correct that you ironically are comitting one yourself when doing it.

*hence the "quoque" part, which means "too". Nobody starts a conversation with: you have committed geniocode too.