My views on objective morality

[Mr.wizard]

I have never had a theist explain to me how they recognize if something is objectively moral or immoral.

[bennyboy]

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This thread was never meant to be a "Here, let me prove something to you guys" type thread. That's not how I operate, not what I'm about, and not what I'm here for. And the people who have followed me on here for the past 8 months that I've been a member, know that. This is only the second thread I've started on this forum where I present my views about something. The other one being my thread about Hell. Every other serious thread I've started on here has been to ask you guys about your views because I think it's interesting to discuss/share different view points. 

The subject of morality being objective has come up several times in the forum, and when I saw the video, I thought the man explained my own position pretty well... and so I posted it. It also helps explain part of the reason why I believe in God, and people are always asking me that, so I thought it would be appropriate to share the video.     

I did not know that posting this in the philosophy section was supposed to mean I was putting forth an argument to be debated, and for that I apologize. I don't have much experience in the philosophy section and was not aware of what the standards here were. The reason I did post it here was because the topic of morality is a philosophical topic to begin with, and the man in the video I posted is a philosophy professor and was speaking as such. Other than that, I really didn't think that much into it and like I said, it never crossed my mind that the philosophy section was specifically meant to be for debates and not appropriate for simply sharing our thoughts about a philosophical topic.

Nonetheless, I think doing it was stupid of me, regardless of if it was in the philosophy section or not. Rest assured I will never start another thread where I present my views about something, either on this section, or any other. Because it seems people would expect me to debate or show concrete "proof" of why I believe as I do, rather than just have friendly conversation with exchange of ideas... and that's not what I'm here for.       

As for "abandoning this thread," I honestly did not mean to do so. Well, except the first time when I was being accused of defending rape, but once that was blown over, I did not purposely abandon the thread. The last 2ish weeks have been very busy for me. I was fostering 3 baby kittens who needed to be bottle fed, were very sick for the majority of the time they were here, and generally needed constant attention and constant clean up. I was working extra hours to compensate for the time I'd be off while recovering from the surgery I was supposed to have this past Wednesday, and I was doing a lot to prepare for the surgery in the first place. I simply did not have the time or the energy to keep entertaining a thread that I felt had long run its course, as I felt the circles were getting repetitive and I was just addressing the same questions multiple times over. 

Anyway, I've learned a lot from this. Not about the topic itself, but about the nature of this place and some of the people here. I will take that all into account from here on out.

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My respect for you just went up about 10x. Most people wouldn't have come back with this.

That being said, let me say something that should be obvious: ANY time a Christian talks about morality, objective or otherwise, the discussion is going to turn to dying babies and rape. That's because when one makes examples, one picks those examples which best illustrate a point. If the point is that a supposedly good and all-powerful God doesn't exist, then what better point could one want to make than the existence of extreme evil?

I, for one, can 100% guarantee that if any theist tries to make the argument for 3-omni God, or an argument for divine morality or free-will, I will go straight to rape and dead babies every time. This is because, for me, those are really fantastic evidence that a good God cannot logically exist.

[bennyboy]

I have never had a theist explain to me how they recognize if something is objectively moral or immoral.

Except CL has: it is "objective" it feels very very immoral to her.

[Mystic]

There are somethings we understand. For example, I understood from a child, that I eat food, and somehow my body uses it to live. Of course as I learned science I got more knowledge of this issue. Still there are scientists who know more about that on biological level, on biochemistry level, etc. 

We don't have to know everything there is to know how morality works, to know somethings about it. Personally, from mystic Islamic background, I understand all greatness and praise to be through God's Name. God's Name is such that if anyone were to truly grasp it in it's core and details, in it's essence, it's complexity and simplicity, they would be able to incredible things like warp an entire throne from one place to another. 

Of course people with such power do not display that power except when God permits them, and they bring such authority only by God's permission.

There is no doubt these people have grasped the secret of creation.   They know the divine link very well, they are intimate with it, the light is not fuzzy to them, it's clear, and what illuminates, the signs, all of them, they are clear and they see them with sure vision.

Of course that is not to say if we don't have that level of understanding, we cannot have any level of understanding of God's Name. At the very least, we understand morality is linked to God. We understand praise all together is linked to God.  We have sort of an idea on the link, but the details, of the descent of each sign of God, is something else all together.

Just like I understood as a child, eating food is something my body makes use of, I understand remembering God is by some divine link. I don't understand the divine link to it's full detail like God's chosen Prophets and their successors, but I understand it to some degree.

Of course I also feel a degree of this link and make use of it's power, draw power from it to a degree, and seek refuge in God from hidden type of evils in this world through this divine link, but this connection is not something that is easily understood it's full detail yet the very truth of it is very evident in that it's obvious that there is a divine link.

Also, it's only through this divine link that we can recite a book from God and come to understand what it's pointing to.

Light all of light, light which by all light get it's reality from, light by which no light is like. That is God.

Your treasured valuable thing you have, that is with God. Every beauty, every glory, every praise, every greatness, every hue that has a positive impression, is with God and from God.

Forms are also all linked to God and are signs of God.

God is everything but nothing in particular. God is every particular at it's ultimate, but he is one, undivided.

Let's take the name "Peace" of God for example. We Muslims say "peace be upon you" to each other, and in Salah, we say "peace be upon us" as well....

The meaning of the taslim (greeting of peace) at the end of the prayer means security, that is, anyone who carries out the command of Allah and the sunnah of His Prophet out of humility to Him and showing fear, has security from the tribulations of this world and freedom from the punishment of the next world. Al-Salam (peace) is one of the names of Allah, which He entrusted to His creation so that they would make use of it in their behaviour, trusts and contracts; in confirming their companies and assemblies; and for the soundness of their social relations.

 
If you want to establish this salam in its proper place, and to fulfill its meaning, then fear Allah; and make your faith, your heart, and your intellect sound. Do not sully them by the injustice of acts of rebellion. Let your guardians be safe from you; do not weary, or bore or alienate them through your bad behaviour towards them, nor with your friend, nor with your enemy. If those who are close to someone are not safe from him, then those furthest from him are safest. Anyone who does not establish salam on the occasions when it should be established has no peace and no submission: he is a liar in his salam, even if he uses it as a form of greeting among people.
 
Know that man's existence lies between trials and afflictions in this world. Allah may test him with blessings, to see his thankfulness, or with hardship, to see if he will show steadfastness and nobility by obeying Him, or disgrace in rebelling against Him, although there is no way to reach His good pleasure and mercy except through His grace. The only means to obey Him is when he grants success: none can intercede with Him except with His permission and mercy.

Imam Jaffar Misbahal Shariah (lantern of the code)

[IATIA]

Also, it's only through this divine link that we can recite a book from God and come to understand what it's pointing to.

Which book? Which god?

[Redbeard The Pink]

Even if objective moral standards existed, they couldn't possibly be dictated by a god.


If the standards exist as they do simply because God says so, then the rules are arbitrary, and right and wrong is merely determined by command; following commands isn't morality.


If the standards exist objectively and god must hold and enforce those standards, then they are greater than he is, and he is not their source.


Either way, the Objective Rules model and the Divine Command model are logically incompatible.

[Mystic]

If the standards exist objectively and god must hold and enforce those standards, then they are greater than he is, and he is not their source.

I'm sorry but what you said doesn't make sense.  If they exist separately from God, then yes, I concede. Do they exist separately from God? No God is the Ultimate unity by which all these standards descend from, he being the ultimate standard.  Everything is created through how it relates to God and his vision of himself with respect to that creation. He gives everything it's creation, then guides it to it's goal. He is the light of all light, by which his creation are guided by and towards.  Morality, goodness, love, compassion, these are all names we make use of, describing somethings. None of these things, not on instance of creation, is separate from God.

[Silver]

I'm sorry, Mystic, but I must call bullshit.

I get so freaking tired of you and other theists making up your own illogical rules merely to substantiate that which requires ill logic in order for you to feel better about what you are presenting. Honestly, stop being so freaking dumb. It becomes tiring after a while, us reasonable ones having to deal with the pure bile you spew.

I could understand if your arguments remotely hinted toward reason, but that is never the case. Rather, your arguments are always full of word salad and personal ill logic and veritable idiocy.

[Mudhammam]

Mystic, might I make a suggestion: learn how to connect your ideas with concepts you can direct the rest of towards without hopelessly begging the question of the medieval narrative you want us to applaud.

[Mr.wizard]

If the standards exist objectively and god must hold and enforce those standards, then they are greater than he is, and he is not their source.

I'm sorry but what you said doesn't make sense.  If they exist separately from God, then yes, I concede. Do they exist separately from God? No God is the Ultimate unity by which all these standards descend from, he being the ultimate standard.  Everything is created through how it relates to God and his vision of himself with respect to that creation. He gives everything it's creation, then guides it to it's goal. He is the light of all light, by which his creation are guided by and towards.  Morality, goodness, love, compassion, these are all names we make use of, describing somethings. None of these things, not on instance of creation, is separate from God.

Actually what he says makes perfect sense, your just arguing for a god dictated morality, not an objective morality.

Also to address the rest of your gibberish, if god gives everything to its creation and guides us to our goal, then all of the evils we experience must come from him. Doesn't sound like the "light of all light" or the source of morality and love.