Cognitive dissonance

[bennyboy]

By "more efficient," I mean avoiding cognitive dissonance, and thereby keeping the brain functioning normally.  It seems to me that in some cases, ignorance really is bliss.

It's also the brain not functioning!

You say that, but it's not true.  A Christian who mourns the death of a child for a week and then returns to work has a functioning brain: he walks, talks, drives and pays his taxes.  If I lost one of MY children, I'd go fucking postal; I'd probably want to set the whole world on fire.  So who is functioning and who isn't?

[God of Mr. Hanky]

Wait... you're suggesting faith based views could cause less cognitive dissonance? I'm not following how that could work. Could you please explain?

I already tried to, but let me try again.

I think the most flawed aspects of many people's world view is the sense that the self lives forever (you can say you won't, but can you really ever let it sink in?), and that important people will be there forever.  Keep in mind, I'm not talking about what people say they believe, but more about how ideas about self and family fit into the big picture of one's world view.

When a parent dies, it's something like a god dying-- it can have a huge impact on somebody.  BUT I think that religious people are likely to adapt more easily and quickly, since their loved one isn't "really" dead, what with them being in Heaven and all.  As for one's child dying-- I mean, Jesus fucking Christ that's hard for anyone.  But if you really believe that little Sally is in Heaven, and that you'll meet her again someday and give her a big hug, that's going to reduce that dissonance.  Such a person can get on with life, go back to work, seek support in church to keep their world view intact, and possibly avoid a mental breakdown.

By the way, I'd say the stages of grieving that everybody knows about are really different levels of cognitive dissonance.

I lost my wife 15 years ago, who died much too young and much too soon after we had married, but still we were soul mates for long enough that my mourning period was long and intense (it's also something which never, in truth really ends). It also has nothing to do with anything cognitive, it's a phased emotional adjustment, as the emotions catch up with the cognitive mind and learn to cope with it.

I find it particularly offensive how you suggest church involvement and Xtard teachings to be helpful for those who have suffered a loss. They aren't only false, they can be particularly harmful to one who is struggling to deal with an actual reality. Being that they are offered by particularly ignorant people, they can be seriously damaging - I was particularly disgusted when when I followed a lead to grieving program which was offered by the local Catholic diocese. I was a bit shocked to be met with an application process and interview, and unfortunately I answered question honestly on my mental health. How crazy am I? How crazy are people with mild autism (Asperger's Syndrome) really thought to be by intelligent people since 10 years before 2001? The diagnosis was by a professional, but I have since come to doubt it, I hardly presented myself as unstable in anyway, and yet that snooty old Catholic cunt rejected me for that reason alone. Oh, but then maybe she also had decided that a widower shouldn't be 34 years old, and didn't want whatever evil I may bring in with that. Now that professional grief counselors exist, leave it to the pros, folks!

[MTL]

It's also the brain not functioning!

You say that, but it's not true.  A Christian who mourns the death of a child for a week and then returns to work has a functioning brain: he walks, talks, drives and pays his taxes.  If I lost one of MY children, I'd go fucking postal; I'd probably want to set the whole world on fire.  So who is functioning and who isn't?

while I cannot speak for Hanky, and he may disagree with me,

I don't think that's what he meant.

I think he was referring more to the general Theist inclination to accept contradictory and conflicting ideas,
but I could be wrong.

I don't think he was disagreeing with you on your example, per se.

But then, like I said, I can't speak for him.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

It's also the brain not functioning!

You say that, but it's not true.  A Christian who mourns the death of a child for a week and then returns to work has a functioning brain: he walks, talks, drives and pays his taxes.  If I lost one of MY children, I'd go fucking postal; I'd probably want to set the whole world on fire.  So who is functioning and who isn't?

Nobody actually does what they expect they will in a situation which they have never experienced, because they cannot predict just how it would impact them. Some people try to bury their grief in their work, but this practice has an extremely poor track record long-term.

If an Xtian goes right back to work after losing a child, and shows no signs of mourning or grief even to his remaining family, then he is the sort who you should really beware of - he's a fucking powder keg, waiting to blow! His pain is no less real, and his attempts to whitewash it with lies is not helping him, and it makes him no good for anyone else. If this ever happens to you, do yourself and everyone around you a huge favor and stay away from churches - seek the advice of a professional grief counselor, who will help you find ways to deal with the grief realistically.

[bennyboy]

I lost my wife 15 years ago, who died much too young and much too soon after we had married, but still we were soul mates for long enough that my mourning period was long and intense (it's also something which never, in truth really ends). It also has nothing to do with anything cognitive, it's a phased emotional adjustment, as the emotions catch up with the cognitive mind and learn to cope with it.

I'm sorry for your loss.

[robvalue]

I'm really sorry to hear that Hanky I can't imagine the pain that must have caused.

Regarding the definition Jorm posted, I noticed the part about avoiding situations which might add to the discomfort. That sounds to me like the entrenched theist refusing to learn about scientific matters, because it would further the gap between their world view and reality.

[God of Mr. Hanky]

I'm really sorry to hear that Hanky I can't imagine the pain that must have caused.

Regarding the definition Jorm posted, I noticed the part about avoiding situations which might add to the discomfort. That sounds to me like the entrenched theist refusing to learn about scientific matters, because it would further the gap between their world view and reality.

Thank you.

Did I stop your thread? I'm sorry, I was just responding to BennyBoy's offensive nonsense.

Come back, all ye chickenshits!

Back on topic, here's my favorite favorite theistic cognitive dissonance:

God is love.
God is a jealous god.

[The Grand Nudger]

Benny has the right of this, dissonance is not the existence or maintenance of contradictory, or seemingly contradictory positions..but the anxiety one feels in doing so.  If religion helps people to reconcile the death of a loved one with their need to be -with- that loved one, for example, than the religious beliefs are mitigating dissonance one might feel in refusing to accept that their loved one is gone while knowing that their loved one is gone.  

This isn't to say that it's good for you in toto, just that in context.....it can be a pro rather than a con. It may not be helpful or healthy in the larger, overall picture....but as far as dissonance is concerned......it works. Perhaps it;s effect is unreliable and non-uniform.....perhaps there is a better way to cope for any given individual or even -all- individuals....but can't we say that about any coping strategy?

[God of Mr. Hanky]

...dissonance is not the existence or maintenance of contradictory, or seemingly contradictory positions..but the anxiety one feels in doing so. 

What has the anxiety one feels have to do with the dictionary definition, which does indeed state that cognitive dissonance is an inconsistency of positions or opinions? What has it really to do with dissonance, where that goes? The context may not be specific, but I believe this therefore leaves it open. For example, we commonly experience cognitive dissonance when theists come around here, which (their own cognitive inconsistencies notwithstanding) are between theists and atheists. The dissonance is cognitive, not emotional, however emotionally-charged the dialogue may become.

Another example of dissonance is sometimes cited, when partnerships split up, as "irreconcilable philosophical differences", which essentially comes down to philosophical dissonance. Again, it's a problem with mutual understanding.

When someone who was close to you dies, this is not a cognitive situation at all, it's emotional. You know from the second you've viewed the body that it's true, but your grieving hasn't even begun yet. You know what has happened, but for at least several weeks you won't even feel it - for this first stage, you are emotionally numb. Those who haven't experienced grief for themselves teach the grieving cycle and label that first phase as "Denial", and this does no good service to the reality of the human condition. Emotions are not cognitive, and when they do catch up with you they hit you like a freight train. Your emotions may be dissonant with your cognitive functions, but there is no dissonance which is cognitive.

If religion helps people to reconcile the death of a loved one with their need to be -with- that loved one, for example, than the religious beliefs are mitigating dissonance one might feel in refusing to accept that their loved one is gone while knowing that their loved one is gone. 

What this really does is offer a panacea for the emotions which are about to hit the grieving person, when they finally do. Far from help them with any cognitive dissonance, it will build walls between them and reality with kind lies, while simultaneously ratcheting tight the cuffs which bind their minds to theistic doctrine, and a lifetime of behavior which supports theistic authority, even when it's against their own interests or others who are still in their lives.

This isn't to say that it's good for you in toto, just that in context.....it can be a pro rather than a con.  It may not be helpful or healthy in the larger, overall picture....but as far as dissonance is concerned......it works.  Perhaps it;s effect is unreliable and non-uniform.....perhaps there is a better way to cope for any given individual or even -all- individuals....but can't we say that about any coping strategy?

It provides a panacea for emotional pain, and that's all that can be said of it which is positive. The lies are a cognitive dissonance, but they are the initial cognitive dissonance, unless you believe that grieving is really cognitive.

[Angrboda]

...dissonance is not the existence or maintenance of contradictory, or seemingly contradictory positions..but the anxiety one feels in doing so. 

What has the anxiety one feels have to do with the dictionary definition, which does indeed state that cognitive dissonance is an inconsistency of positions or opinions?

Citation needed. What dictionary?