Introducing Meee!

[ignoramus]

Pana ... it's easy to get into the word games fallacy when talking about philosophy or abstract concepts.

Ask yourself first what you think the word "universe" or "reality" means.
You'll find that many Christians like to hide God outside of time and space where he can never be disproven.

Again, more word play! Are there some road signs at the end of our universe which say: Warning space and time have not been constructed - do not cross!
Actually we're not complaining though, as 90% of our entertainment comes from these specially enlightened group of people.

[Panatheist]

When I say the cosmos may be self-existent I mean that it is able to exist somehow of itself without need for dependence on an origin outside of itself.  I do not know what physicists say about this in general except that at least a few have made arguments for this possibility (an eternal self-existent universe).  I will be looking for threads on this topic or if need be start one myself.

Wouldn't an "origin of the universe outside of the universe" simply extend our notion of what encompasses the universe?

Not for those who believe that origin is Absolute (immaterial) Being, that is, God. And if it came from another universe I'm not sure we would count it as an extension of our own or not. I presume not if it's outside of our universe' space-time. (The description of the God origin I provided here is a reference to my friend's reasoning.)

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Pana ... it's easy to get into the word games fallacy when talking about philosophy or abstract concepts.

Ask yourself first what you think the word "universe" or "reality" means.
You'll find that many Christians like to hide God outside of time and space where he can never be disproven.

Again, more word play! Are there some road signs at the end of our universe which say: Warning space and time have not been constructed - do not cross!
Actually we're not complaining though, as 90% of our entertainment comes from these specially enlightened group of people.

Well I'm not sure what it means either but I didn't know if anything in the universe might somehow be exempt from space-time (quantum events?)

I did object that invoking God doesn't really explain anything. He says it does: self-realizing absolute being independent of any origin which also realizes all possibilities in itself (therefore it emanates creation) stops an infinite regress and explains the origins of our cosmos (which he says cannot be eternal in any way shape or form). He says this is self-evident and necessary even though absolute being cannot be explained.

I am simply agnostic to that claim and very skeptical. It just seems like an invented definition. And I'm not convinced that energy itself is not eternal even though the forms and structure of the cosmos aren't.

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Oh and I suppose another universe would be an example of something outside of our space-time and that I can conceive of and it may have its own space-time. Of course I'm sure most theists aren't intending to argue that God is merely confined to an alternative universe.

[Alex K]

@Panatheist

That's an arbitrary distinction - spacetime is bound to get weird and fuzzy near the big bang. Whatever quantum foam strangeness or whatever is there, can only sensibly be called a part of our extended universe. Positing your god where concepts of space and time as we know them cease to hold is also completely ad hoc and not justified by the physics.

[Minimalist]

Greetings.

[LadyForCamus]

Hello to everyone.  I'm registering with the forums primarily to lurk and also to ask some questions here and there.

I've thought about, pondered, read, and debated atheist/theist concerns and beliefs but have not really visited this topic in a long time.  It took me a while to consciously embrace agnostic-atheism.  I developed into those views when I was 18 but it had been a long time coming.  It's not a primary identifier for me or anything, but it's my default position.  I have my reasons for it, but I'm not particularly well versed in philosophy or arguments.  That is something I'd like to change.  I do describe myself as a pantheist usually because that captures my underlying mood and sense of relationship to the cosmos and other things about me.  I don't tend to think about traditional theism much so I don't think about being an agnostic or atheist on a frequent basis, though I use those words if I do find myself having to clarify my beliefs or lack thereof on certain issues.

I suppose I'm agnostic-atheist because it seems like so many "paranormal" phenomena of interest to me so often have mundane (though often interesting) explanations, and social and cultural explanations for the development of religious doctrine and the Bible, both of which fascinate me, seem so much more reasonable and obvious than revelation-centered beliefs.

I have been conversing with a Catholic friend who also happens to be a philosopher and physicist.  I don't quite know how to counter his arguments (mostly the Cosmological argument).  I simply find it utterly unconvincing.  I can't disprove his beliefs (there's my agnosticism speaking) but I find them faaar from "self-evident" despite my lack of philosophical training.  Not being well versed in metaphysics or physics I don't really know what to say about his claim that most physicists believe the universe is not self-existent, although I don't find that a good argument either: that there must be a self-realizing absolute reality not dependent on anything else on which everything else depends for its being, or that causality necessarily applies to the entire cosmos in the way that it does to individual things within the cosmos.  In fact his tone is sort of irritating me as are his pleas that I read his critique of pantheism (mostly an insistence on a particular definition of God that is by no means universal across religions and persons), but he is a good friend and I mostly enjoy our conversations.  I hope to test some of his arguments against better informed atheists here and see what they make of them.  Besides that I just want to sharpen up my ideas and logic.

Hello, hello again!

Hello there, and welcome! Thank you for sharing your story. You'll get great practice here; there are so many bright minds to bounce off of. Look forward to interacting with you more!

[brewer]

Welcome!

I won't be much help with the debate/philosophy or arguments. I just know what I don't believe and can usually smell bullshit when it's around.

My take, this god talk is all a man made fantasy. Those that believe are deluded. Not always to the point of what I consider mental illness but deluded none the less. Probably one of the worst things mankind has ever unleashed upon it self.