Atheists

[KichigaiNeko]

The impression I get is that in general (and with exceptions), atheists seem to feel a number of things.

They seem to feel victimised for their nonbeliefs. Maybe some of you live in a country or part of a country where not believing in god is seen as a big deal. However it's obviously not like that everywhere.

Anger. I always sense a lot of anger among atheists on these forums, like a grudge. It's like there's a deep need to "get back" at all theists, for some imagined wrongdoing. I hve to say that it's not a particularly healthy attitue to have.

Assumptions. Many atheists assume that a theist would want to preach and convert atheists, or that they feel superior. Ironically atheists take on those traits themselves quite often. Also there's often an assumption that when someone introduces themselves as a theist, that they'e a christian. I've read many posts addressed to me and others which mention "your bible" and other christian references, even before the person knows whether or not the theist is a christian. It's quite bizarre, and melodramatic.

What you should realise is that not all theists hate you, and there's no need to be angry all the time and lash out, and that not all theists are christians, or want to preach at you, and that having all that anger inside you will only harm you. The whole atheist V theist debate, when you look closely, is more often than not a disgruntled ex christain V christian debate, except that not everyone fits into either.

Sorry pumpkin but this atheist really couldn't care less what your perception is....

Humans have a penchant for needing to feel superior otherwise why would theism have such a strong attraction??

I am currently of the opinion that it all just comes down to the us and them principle ...

Kinda primitive really

[chasm]

In your experience, most theists preach to you. Your experience. You quoted the bit where I said that "it's not like that everywhere", and in response, you didn't dispute that, instead you began talking about things in your experience and things that you'd heard about. I get it, I understand, but that is your experience.

That's a very good deflection answer! It's a new one! I'm proud of you!

And anyway, if all or even most theists per se are preachy, then why don't I ever encounter them? How come all the people who I know to be theists (of any kind whatsoever) don't preach? How come every time (admittedly few, but enough to spot a pattern) I've been in a religious environment, whether it be a church or the home of someone who's religious, how come not only did no one there preach to me, but they actively went out of their way to let me know that they're not even interested in doing so (even when I've subtly insisted on a debate)? You see, depending on where you are, you could live your whole life being preached at by christians (let's face it, that's what is meant by "theist" - christians are "your" theists, in your experience), or you could live your life barely giving any thought at all as to who believes what, because no one really considers it an issue. Over time you've become so conditioned to equate christian=preachy, theist=(probably) christian, theist=preachy, that that has become your experience and that is all you see.

1. You're a theist, right? Right. Other theists don't preach to other theists.
2. If you've been in a "religious environment" such as a church, how could have not been preached to? You were in a church!
3. No, let's not face it, shall we? A theist is someone who believes in one or more deities, correct? If you are Buddhist, you are a theist, because Buddha is a deity, and you believe in him. A Christian would also be a theist in that same respect, only they believe in God, not Buddha. When I say "theist" I don't automatically mean "Christian". Stop putting words into my mouth. And no, the theists in my experiences have been a variety of different religions. I would appreciate it if you would stop re-living my experiences for me.

And over time you'll realise that your current experience is not shared by all. Go to San Francisco, London, New York, there are many places where no one even cares about your views on god. If a gay person lives in a small village, they're more likely to have a hard time there than they would if thy lived in a city. That's why you get gay communities in cities and not in villages. That's why the experience of gay people in cities is much more pleasant and free than in villages.

Really? Because a gay person who lives in New York City, the largest city in the U.S. and possibly the world, can't get married. Did you know that?

If you live in the bible belt or somewhere similar, no wonder you see everything the way you do. No wonder you can say the phrase "Most theists do preach to us", yeah I bet they do. I bet most theists where you live are christians, and also preachy. But notall theists are christians and not all christians are preachy.

I know that not all theists are Christians. I'm not a dumbass. I know that not all Christians are preachy. I'm not stupid. My point is, if you're an atheist and you tell a theist "I'm an atheist", 9 times out of ten, that person is going to question your belief on some level, and tell you a little bit their beliefs. That's being preachy to me.

If you don't believe me, see for yourself, go somewhere different. Expand your horizons and you'll see.

I've lived all over the U.S., on the East coast and the West coast. I've been to a few countries. I've expanded my horizons. I still stand by what I said. Most theists are preachy.

[Eilonnwy]

I only have to say one thing. Sweeping generalizations, Godhead, you've mastered them.

[Godhead]

Chasm -

Well if you count merely talking about your beliefs as being preachy, then I can see why you consider most theists to be preachy. The word preach has a very specific meaning. It doesn't mean merely talking about one's beliefs. I've encountered atheists who disagree with you and say that theists in general don't preach, only a minority do so, and I've encountered atheists who don't consider merely talking about one's beliefs as being preachy, many in fact. So actually you are only speaking for yourself and whoever happens to see it your way, but your views don't represent all atheists. Also, when a theist comes here, atheists ask them to talk about their beliefs. With your definition of what preaching means (which is incorrect), that means that atheists want theists to preach to them. However, that's obviously not the case. They recognise the difference between talking about, and preaching at. The very fact that theists are welcome here is an illustration that you're incorrect with your definition of what preching means, because in the rules it states no preaching, yet theists are welcome. How do you square that? You can't really, because your definition of preaching is flawed. If the rules of this forum agreed with you, then no theists would be welcome unless they never talk about their beliefs. Obviously that's not the case either. To add to that, if preching means merely mentioning or talking about, then that would mean that every single atheist here preaches, since they all at some point talk about their view. It may not be a belief, but if your definition of preaching (ie talking about something) is correct, then everyone here preaches. But again, not the case. We all have a right to talk about our views, and some would say that we all have a right to talk about them but without preaching. Those who say that know the difference, whereas you don't seem to.

[chasm]

Well if you count merely talking about your beliefs as being preachy, then I can see why you consider most theists to be preachy.

Right. Thanks for seeing it my way. And yes, I can count that as being preachy.

The word preach has a very specific meaning. It doesn't mean merely talking about one's beliefs.

To this, I say:

to give a talk, usually during a religious service, about religious or moral matters

I've encountered atheists who disagree with you and say that theists in general don't preach, only a minority do so, and I've encountered atheists who don't consider merely talking about one's beliefs as being preachy, many in fact.

You ridicule me for using personal experiences, yet you turn around and do the same?

The very fact that theists are welcome here is an illustration that you're incorrect with your definition of what preching means, because in the rules it states no preaching, yet theists are welcome.

Because theists are welcome doesn't mean that I'm incorrect. It means that this forum is open-minded.

If the rules of this forum agreed with you, then no theists would be welcome unless they never talk about their beliefs. Obviously that's not the case either.

Wait wait wait. When did my saying "Most theists are preachy" turn into "All theists shouldn't be welcomed" ?????

To add to that, if preching means merely mentioning or talking about, then that would mean that every single atheist here preaches, since they all at some point talk about their view. It may not be a belief, but if your definition of preaching (ie talking about something) is correct, then everyone here preaches.

I agree to that. I never said atheists didn't preach.

[LastPoet]

Paul -

It's not about how I feel because I'm ok with my beliefs, however in contrast, it's you who isn't ok with other people's beliefs. Saying that a view is ridiculous isn't an argument, it's just an expression of a subjective opinion and nothing more than an affirmation (to yourself) that you disagree. And actively attempting to ridicule someone amounts to an attempt at asserting superiority; at the end of the day you view those who disagree with you as inferior, and ridicule is your way of trying to express that. Trying to ridicule someone is akin to trying to belittle them, which is what you feel the need to do for some reason. When anyone tries to belittle someone else, it's a sign of deep insecurity. However, you're trying to pass it off as just saying what you think but it's clear that it's more than that. You are insecure, hence the need to make attempts at belittling those who don't share your views.

*dips foot into teh debate*
I will admit that many atheists use appeals to ridicule to theists, their reasons are their own, sometimes frustration, sometimes just to look cool (what you expect, that ALL atheists are good? That is a christian proposition, not atheist). For some theists the appeal to ridicule is what is in demand, since the atheist will already have sorted out that the theist can't be reasoned with. If this has happened to you, then I am sorry, but atheists don't claim they are good christians.

Some atheists have suffered deeply for their former theist 'status' and you can't surely say to me that their emotions aren't excusable(unless it envolves physical violence). You can say they are innapropriate(sp?), but not inexculpable.

For us its most clear that "it's more than that", no atheist will say no to that, it's more than 'godidit', its what we can explore, and find a way to know more, and more, and more! And try that in the Universe account of 'things' we, as humanity, don't easily fade in a round approximation.

[chasm]

innapropriate(sp?)

inappropriate.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

I love that. It took her less than a second to resort to Christmas present bribery. What a bitch.

I'm an atheist & really do enjoy the giving & receiving of gifts during the holidays & all the family stuff that goes along with it.

I'm just glad I never had to deal with that experience myself. Some members of my family were less than thrilled, but I've yet to deal with anyone who has attempted to bribe, threaten, or anything like that at me, but stories like the one I showcased here doesn't seem to be all that rare amongst atheists.

It reminds me too much of all the stories of gay sons and daughters coming out to their parents and illiciting a similar reaction, especially from the more religious parents or familiy.

Personally, though, what irks me is when anyone is surprised when a group of individuals who has to 'come out' to his parents with some truth about himself so carefully because of the fear of the reaction it will invoke because of all the stories of the things that can happen to gay people, atheists, and other people who are frequently persecuted for some reason or another.
For example, being a registered sex offender anywhere regardless of whether you'll ever commit a crime again or carrying an incurable disease regardless of how transmittable it actually is. People like those are treated like they are human plagues on this earth. Atheists are treated little different in many communities around America.

Ignorance of any of those issues will frequently illicit a negative reaction and living with this issue for many, many years of dealing with the ignorance and irrational hatred of those around you can make those of us react quite negatively and demean those who may not deserve it as much as those that would.

Lampooning us for reacting a little too strongly to something we have to deal with all too frequently is just wrong. I'm not saying that excuses people who resort to name-calling or child-like tactics in what's supposed to be a civilized debate - that's always rude and nothing excuses that, but it at least makes the reaction understandable.

[Godhead]

Chasm -

Ridiculing is what you do, I'm not ridiculing you, I'm merely pointing out that you interpret your personal experience as being absolute, as opposed to merely being your personal experience, whereas my experience illustrates diversity and the fact that people are different. In other words you see everything in black and white, when it's not necessarily so. If this forum is open minded then you are not. And of course you admit to preaching, which I agree with. You preach the word of atheism, whereas I merely talk about my views, but without wishing you to share them, as I feel no psychological need to be agreed with. My motivation in talking about my views is simplyself expression, which is not the same as preaching, as much as you'd like it to be, and your motivation is to have me agree with you in order for you to feel validated. It's a crutch for you.

[chasm]

Ridiculing is what you do, I'm not ridiculing you, I'm merely pointing out that you interpret your personal experience as being absolute, as opposed to merely being your personal experience, whereas my experience illustrates diversity and the fact that people are different.

That might work, except I never said my personal experiences were absolute; an answer to a seemingly unanswerable question. Nice try, though.

You haven't ridiculed me? Read my earlier posts - read your earlier posts - and you might see you did.

In other words you see everything in black and white, when it's not necessarily so.

Of course everything isn't black and white. How else could the grass as being green?

With all due respect (which I don't think you deserve), I don't see everything as black and white. I understand there are gray areas. I know not every question is going to have a "yes or no" answer. Take the issue of abortion for example. What if pregnancy is a risk for the mother? What if the mother comes from a strict, devoutly Christian family who would disown her if she had a child if she wasn't married? Would it be considered immoral in those situations? You see that the answer of abortion being moral or immoral is simply not black and white.

If this forum is open minded then you are not. And of course you admit to preaching, which I agree with. You preach the word of atheism, whereas I merely talk about my views, but without wishing you to share them, as I feel no psychological need to be agreed with. My motivation in talking about my views is simplyself expression, which is not the same as preaching, as much as you'd like it to be, and your motivation is to have me agree with you in order for you to feel validated. It's a crutch for you.

I didn't know you were a psychology major! How nice is that! You've never met me, or talked to me outside this thread, and yet you know all my little crutches! You're good.

I don't need you to agree with me. In fact, I'd much rather you not agree with me. When idiots agree with me, I always feel stupider.

On a more serious note, I don't preach the way you view the word "preach". And if I do, could you give me an example of me doing that? As you are very good at that. And you preach, as well, if we are going by your definition of preach. (but, oh wait, you haven't said what it is...) I understand why you would want to say you don't preach - it makes your argument a moot point.

I'm not going to argue with you about how well you know me, my crutches, or my motives, because you are obviously close-minded and won't listen. It seems nothing could sway your understanding of me - even me! Ironic, yes?

One question: could you answer to everything I've said? You knit-pick a lot, and it seems that points I seem to trump on, you try to shy away from.