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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 4:31 pm
Just going to throw it out there if you want your god to be all knowing and have free will you have
to also accept god being wrong about his knowledge. Even if there was some magical wild card allowing god to be
all knowing and allowing for free will then gods precised foreknowledge is wrong he sees us taking option a while we are taking option b.
And he could never see into our direct future but only get one side of it not the other.
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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 4:39 pm
(May 26, 2016 at 4:31 pm)dyresand Wrote: Just going to throw it out there if you want your god to be all knowing and have free will you have
to also accept god being wrong about his knowledge. Even if there was some magical wild card allowing god to be
all knowing and allowing for free will then gods precised foreknowledge is wrong he sees us taking option a while we are taking option b.
And he could never see into our direct future but only get one side of it not the other.
Let me break what you said above down into bite-sized pieces:
1) God has fallible foreknowledge of our actions
2) Humans may choose to act in ways that God does not foresee
3) God cannot foresee our future actions
What exactly are you trying to say? That god's infallible foreknowledge and free-will contradict?
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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 4:40 pm
Does a fruit tree make fruit according to certain conditions or not?
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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 4:49 pm
(This post was last modified: May 26, 2016 at 5:05 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
(May 26, 2016 at 4:23 pm)Ignorant Wrote: Yes we disagree. You wrote "I must choose whatever is described ["regardless of whether events happen contingently"]". <= This doesn't make ANY sense. I didn't ask you whether or not we agreed that events are or aren't contingent- which is explicitly the point of phrasing the question in such a manner. Do we disagree regarding the subject of the question I asked? Can I freely will b, if gods foreknowledge says a?
Quote:Tell me again how the concept of possible options is irrelevant to your opinion of free will?
NP, already elaborated upon with the example of the roads. Having two -actual- roads in front of you, let alone wispy "possible roads"....doesn't speak to free will. Hell, I may not even have a choice, let alone a freely willed one. Much time is wasted trying to establish options as though this established free will.
Quote:You're right, that isn't my intention AT ALL. Clearly, you are struggling to distinguish contingency from choice and freedom. That is ok, I did too.
"you don't agree because you don't understand" - said every forum apologist ever. I do understand, I still disagree. I keep telling you that I'm not discussing the nature of contingency, not making any claims regarding determinism..but you keep going on about it.
Quote:Does a fruit tree make fruit according to certain conditions or not?
Why does it matter, we're discussing free will's compatibility with foreknowledge, not fruit set on my peaches compatibility with foreknowledge.
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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 4:53 pm
(May 26, 2016 at 4:39 pm)Ignorant Wrote: (May 26, 2016 at 4:31 pm)dyresand Wrote: Just going to throw it out there if you want your god to be all knowing and have free will you have
to also accept god being wrong about his knowledge. Even if there was some magical wild card allowing god to be
all knowing and allowing for free will then gods precised foreknowledge is wrong he sees us taking option a while we are taking option b.
And he could never see into our direct future but only get one side of it not the other.
Let me break what you said above down into bite-sized pieces:
1) God has fallible foreknowledge of our actions
2) Humans may choose to act in ways that God does not foresee
3) God cannot foresee our future actions
What exactly are you trying to say? That god's infallible foreknowledge and free-will contradict?
I literally just supported you by saying that.... in so many words i was saying he couldn't know our future actions only the opposite of our actions.
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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 4:56 pm
(May 26, 2016 at 4:49 pm)Rhythm Wrote: (May 26, 2016 at 4:23 pm)Ignorant Wrote: Yes we disagree. You wrote "I must choose whatever is described ["regardless of whether events happen contingently"]". <= This doesn't make ANY sense. I didn't ask you whether or not we agreed that events are or aren't contingent- which is explicitly the point of phrasing the question in such a manner. Do we disagree regarding the subject of the question I asked? Can I choose b, if gods foreknowledge says a?
Quote:Tell me again how the concept of possible options is irrelevant to your opinion of free will?
NP, already elaborated upon with the example of the roads. Having two -actual- roads in front of you, let alone wispy "possible roads"....doesn't speak to choice or free will. Does the train choose which of two tracks it goes down? Does it use it's free will? No, and no. Much time is wasted trying to establish options as though this established choice or free will.
Quote:You're right, that isn't my intention AT ALL. Clearly, you are struggling to distinguish contingency from choice and freedom. That is ok, I did too.
"you don't agree because you don't understand" - said every forum apologist ever. I do understand, I still disagree. I keep telling you that I'm not discussing the nature of contingency, not making any claims regarding determinism..but you keep going on about it.
Quote:Does a fruit tree make fruit according to certain conditions or not?
Why does it matter, we're discussing free will and foreknowledge, not fruit set on my peaches.
he is a apologist indeed someone wants their cake and eat it too.
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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 5:32 pm
(This post was last modified: May 26, 2016 at 5:36 pm by Ignorant.)
(May 26, 2016 at 4:49 pm)Rhythm Wrote: ... Can I choose b, if gods foreknowledge says a?
No. Now, before you ignore everything I've written about this already, please reread: This, this and this. Then, think real hard about this:
"If god knows that the tree-which-makes-fruit-according-to-conditions WILL make fruit tomorrow according to conditions, then there is no way that the tree-which-makes-fruit-according-to-conditions WILL NOT make fruit according to conditions. <= My perspective"
-Me, HERE
Applying my perspective to your above question:
Given: you are a thing which acts-by-choosing
If god knows that you-who-act-by-choosing WILL do act B by choosing b, then there is no way that the you-who-act-by-choosing WILL NOT do b by choosing b.
No doubt, instead, you reason:
Given: you are a thing which acts-by-choosing
If god knows that you-who-act-by-choosing WILL do act B _____ _____, then there is no way that the you-who-act-by-choosing WILL NOT do b necessarily. Therefore, divine foreknowledge conflicts with human choice.
Quote: Much time is wasted trying to establish options as though this established choice or free will.
Might I turn your attention to exhibit A from post #142:
![[Image: 14pnq0.jpg]](https://i.imgflip.com/14pnq0.jpg)
You are about 4 pages behind me on that point.
Quote:NP, already elaborated upon with the example of the roads. Having two -actual- roads in front of you, let alone wispy "possible roads"....doesn't speak to choice or free will. Does the train choose which of two tracks it goes down? Does it use it's free will? No, and no.
Ok. Let's go real slow here.
1) Suppose there are two tracks along which a train can go down.
2) Are there a set of events that, if occurring, will determine that the train go down along track 1? Yes, a certain set of events, if present, will determine that the train goes down track 1
3) Are there a set of events that, if occurring, will determine that the train go down along track 2? Yes, a certain set of different events, if present, will determine that the train goes down track 2.
4) Does the train, therefore, go down either track 1 or track 2 according to conditions? YES!
5) Does the train, therefore, have a choice as to which track to go down along? NO!
6) Does the fact that the train goes down the tracks according to conditions mean that it chooses? NO!
7) Does the fact that the train goes down the tracks according to conditions mean that it has free-will? NO!
Quote:"you don't agree because you don't understand" - said every forum apologist ever. I do understand, I still disagree.
That may be the case, and it may be the case that I am not understanding your understanding... but the following sentences give me pause about that...
Quote:I keep telling you that I'm not discussing the nature of contingency, not making any claims regarding determinism..but you keep going on about it.
Oh I dunno, maybe contingency is an important logical prerequisite for choosing, and choosing an important prerequisite for freedom.
Somehow, despite my many statements to the contrary, you think I am arguing this way:
Actions are contingent, and therefore chosen and free. God knows our actions are contingent, and therefore they are chosen and free. <= no.
[EDIT: Does a fruit tree make fruit according to conditions or not?]
Quote:Why does it matter, we're discussing free will's compatibility with foreknowledge, not fruit set on my peaches compatibility with foreknowledge.
It's simple, if we can't show that foreknowledge is compatible with non-free contingent things like a fruit tree making fruit, then there is no use in trying to show that foreknowledge is compatible with more complex and detailed things like free action in humans.
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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 5:39 pm
Why the reluctance to discuss the nature of contingency?
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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 6:20 pm
(May 26, 2016 at 3:15 am)Ignorant Wrote: Yes, if some other outcome occurred which differed from the outcome determined and known by god, then it would in fact disprove god's infallibility. Determination does not equal necessity
Once determined, then by necessity, it must be so, else it was not determined. The words may be different, but in the context of this argument, they are inseparable.
The only thing wrong with my argument is that it does not conform to your world view.
You want free will to exist even though your god already knows what your choice will be. By necessity of your god's infallibility it was determined that you make the choice god has foreseen. You have no choice, it must be as god knows, therefore the other 'choices/possibilities' do not exist. Possibilities can only exist if you can choose, but you cannot choose as your god has seen to that.
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RE: Free will
May 26, 2016 at 7:09 pm
(This post was last modified: May 26, 2016 at 7:10 pm by dom.donald.)
If everyone and everything in the universe behaves according to a deterministic set of rules, once the initial conditions of the system have been set, everything is (necessarily) pre-determined. If you introduce any kind of 'random-ness' into the rules, then things are no longer pre-determined. The question is, are all the rules deterministic? If they are not deterministic, then things aren't predetermined, but there is still no free will.
Why couldn't these rules have evolved naturally? Is there any true randomness in the universe? Whether or not things could turn out one way or another (e.g. rules may themselves evolve), I don't believe we have free will, and that it is just an illusion.
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