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"Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
#11
RE: "Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
(April 10, 2016 at 1:37 pm)Minimalist Wrote: It's never the right time for people who don't want to hear it in the first place.

BINGO, and if we always insist on never offending others, we'd still be stuck in the dark ages. I really do love the empathy of even my liberal theist friends, but in far too many situations even a polite "that is not true" to far too many might as well be a literal "fuck you".

That is why you never slap well intended empathetic ideas of "don't offend" ever, as a blanket solution. That matters to all parties, because the worst thing you can do is hand that kind of power to a majority that might not like what you have to say. 

The best humans can do is allow the bitching and blasphemy in all directions but still insist on the common law of no calls to violence or physical acts of violence.

If we all got to silence things merely because they offend us, there is not one human out of the 7 billion that could not think of something they would rather not have said to them that offends them.
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#12
RE: "Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
(April 10, 2016 at 1:37 pm)Brian37 Wrote:
(April 10, 2016 at 1:26 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: I agree with you 100% in principle, Brian. In practice, I don't know if comments like that are worth it. You're doing it to advance the cause of atheism but if all you accomplish is making people think atheists are pricks, it's counter-productive. I've seen that exact scenario played out dozens of times in various forums and it always goes the way you described. The people always think the atheist is a prick. If you choose to comment in those situations, choose your words VERY carefully. It's not a matter of being right but of having the desired effect. I don't know if it's possible, frankly.

No sorry, but the only case that can be made is case by case. Even between atheists the public disagreements either way theists need to see, that gets them to treat us as individuals and not sheep. So the reality is we are individuals too so don't say "You make me look bad" you say, "You make yourself look bad".

And in the grand scale that is what humans should do in any case regardless of label, treat each other as individuals.

Well, it's your choice as an individual what to do but make no mistake: If you represent yourself as an atheist and come across badly, it certainly DOES influence how all atheists are viewed. It shouldn't be that way but it IS. Think about it. We're dealing with people with an emotion-based worldview here - not a logical one.

I won't presume to tell you how to proceed; I just want to make you aware of the pitfalls of arguing against prayer in the face of tragedy. I have seen it done countless times and I have tried it myself. In EVERY instance I have seen or been involved in, everyone but fellow atheists come away with the impression that the atheist is a heartless prick. IMHO, the result of the argument is a net loss for atheists. People walk away with a worse opinion of us than they had going in. Whether the logical argument about the absurdity of prayer sunk in, I have no way of knowing. If it did sink in. I am similarly ignorant of the relative net effect of getting through to them versus them thinking I'm a heartless prick. I don't know if there is a net gain or not. My gut feeling is that there is a net loss.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
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#13
RE: "Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
I've never understood the "waiting period" after major events. Like, why shouldn't we immediately talk gun reform after a mass shooting? What are you going to do instead, feel sad for a bunch of strangers for a week? No. Let those directly affected grieve while everyone else moves forward...like what happens every day when people die
Memento Mori
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#14
RE: "Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
(April 10, 2016 at 3:07 pm)Aegon Wrote: I've never understood the "waiting period" after major events. Like, why shouldn't we immediately talk gun reform after a mass shooting? What are you going to do instead, feel sad for a bunch of strangers for a week? No. Let those directly affected grieve while everyone else moves forward...like what happens every day when people die

Your lack of understanding is irrelevant. If you're trying to influence an emotion-based person, you have to appeal to them emotionally. Isn't that logical?
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
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#15
RE: "Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
(April 10, 2016 at 3:07 pm)Aegon Wrote: I've never understood the "waiting period" after major events. Like, why shouldn't we immediately talk gun reform after a mass shooting? What are you going to do instead, feel sad for a bunch of strangers for a week? No. Let those directly affected grieve while everyone else moves forward...like what happens every day when people die


Thank you!

Imagine if scientific method worked off the same principle of never offending, our species never would have left the caves. It isn't that you always go out of your way to offend, just to offend. But in contextual priorities. Even in competing scientific claims, many have been so sure of their positions only to have other scientists debunk them. Newton got physics right but also postulated "Alchemy" which he later rightfully scrapped.

And with religion, there is no polite way to say to most, "It is all man made" and certainly you cant rid the world of it by force, but to state that isn't a crime. Humans should fear more their own insecurities than they should  fear doubt. Doubt is not a flaw, it is the willingness to step back and take the time to insure you are not simply protecting your own ego.
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#16
RE: "Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
(April 10, 2016 at 3:13 pm)AFTT47 Wrote:
(April 10, 2016 at 3:07 pm)Aegon Wrote: I've never understood the "waiting period" after major events. Like, why shouldn't we immediately talk gun reform after a mass shooting? What are you going to do instead, feel sad for a bunch of strangers for a week? No. Let those directly affected grieve while everyone else moves forward...like what happens every day when people die

Your lack of understanding is irrelevant. If you're trying to influence an emotion-based person, you have to appeal to them emotionally. Isn't that logical?

They're not emotion-based people, they're people who are using other people's emotions for their own personal gain (talking about the NRA and many Republicans).
Memento Mori
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#17
RE: "Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
Quote: our species never would have left the caves.

Many individuals never have.
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#18
RE: "Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
(April 10, 2016 at 3:30 pm)Minimalist Wrote:
Quote: our species never would have left the caves.

Many individuals never have.

Yes IE Mein Drumpf and Ted Cruz and the entire G O PEE.
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#19
RE: "Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
(April 10, 2016 at 3:26 pm)Aegon Wrote:
(April 10, 2016 at 3:13 pm)AFTT47 Wrote: Your lack of understanding is irrelevant. If you're trying to influence an emotion-based person, you have to appeal to them emotionally. Isn't that logical?

They're not emotion-based people, they're people who are using other people's emotions for their own personal gain (talking about the NRA and many Republicans).

Seems like you completely changed the subject here. I'm talking about people Brian is attempting to reach with the logical argument that prayer is nonsense. Most of those people are emotional - especially when they are grieving. I maintain that hitting them with logic at that time is counter-productive - unless done VERY carefully. They simply are not going to be receptive. We, as logical people, should understand that. It's a simple equation, really. Logical arguments on emotional people in a particularly emotional state = FAILURE.
Only two things are infinite, the universe and human stupidity, and I'm not sure about the former.

Albert Einstein
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#20
RE: "Not the right time" rears it's ugly head again.
(April 10, 2016 at 3:36 pm)AFTT47 Wrote:
(April 10, 2016 at 3:26 pm)Aegon Wrote: They're not emotion-based people, they're people who are using other people's emotions for their own personal gain (talking about the NRA and many Republicans).

Seems like you completely changed the subject here. I'm talking about people Brian is attempting to reach with the logical argument that prayer is nonsense. Most of those people are emotional - especially when they are grieving. I maintain that hitting them with logic at that time is counter-productive - unless done VERY carefully. They simply are not going to be receptive. We, as logical people, should understand that. It's a simple equation, really. Logical arguments on emotional people in a particularly emotional state = FAILURE.

You keep missing my point. Nobody is suggesting doing that face to face in person in a private moment. Again, I am talking about NEWS. Humans die all the time and we criticize the logic of prayer ALL THE TIME. The point was not to tell people to lack empathy, the point is to say that NOBODY gets a monopoly in public events to dictate public discourse. 

I see people comment about prayer when churches burn down by a lightening strike or get flooded by natural disasters. I hear comments about survivors all the time talk about prayer and others say "what about the dead?" This is not new in skepticism one bit. 

Now again, I have believing family members and when I die, of course they are going to do their own thing, but I am not a public figure. I certainly would not want someone causing noise violations or physically disrupting a wake for me, but I would expect my believing family to leave it at the door or have a separate memorial. Outside that if  were a celebrity, which I am not, but if I were, being an atheist, it would be absurd for anyone to expect those who don't like me to refrain from making comments in media, it will happen.

I am addressing public events in news and in person intimate face to face interaction.
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