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Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
#1
Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
There are some actions that are almost universally regarded as moral or immoral. For instance, giving to charity is generally regarded as moral, while stealing is generally regarded as immoral. Two examples:

1. John has donated $1000 to Oxfam. He simply donated the money, and didn't talk about it. James, through whatever means, found out and donated $2000 to Oxfam, and immediately went round crowing about how he donated twice as much as John, that cheap fuck. Further, James' motivation for his giving was solely to get one up on John, who he never liked. Does John's motivation (helping hungry people) make his action more moral than James' motivation (making himself look better than John)? Remember that in both cases, the end result is the same - people are helped.

2. Susan sees a money clip lying on the floor of a restaurant. No one is about, so she scoops it up and uses the money to buy the shoes she's had her eye on but just couldn't afford. Brenda finds a wallet on a park bench and takes $50 from it to buy the medicine her 6 years old son needs, but which she can't afford. Does Brenda's motivation (helping her sick child) make her action more moral than Susan's motivation (really cute shoes)? Remember, in both cases theft has occurred and innocent parties are out money due to the actions of both women.

Boru
‘But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods or no gods. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg.’ - Thomas Jefferson
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#2
RE: Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
I would say there is no fixed, correct way to "measure" morality. Everyone uses their own method.

Personally, I take as many factors into consideration as possible. I certainly don't just consider outcomes. So yes, for me, motivation makes a difference regarding my assessment.

To show a simple example of why I consider this to be the case:

I hack into a charity's bank account, with the intention of stealing their money. I accidentally give them my money instead, and am then unable to correct my mistake. I would consider the act completely immoral, due to the motivation (and intent), even though the outcome would generally be considered moral if you had no other information.
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#3
RE: Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
(May 8, 2016 at 6:40 am)BrianSoddingBoru4 Wrote: There are some actions that are almost universally regarded as moral or immoral.  For instance, giving to charity is generally regarded as moral, while stealing is generally regarded as immoral.  Two examples:

1.  John has donated $1000 to Oxfam.  He simply donated the money, and didn't talk about it.  James, through whatever means, found out and donated $2000 to Oxfam, and immediately went round crowing about how he donated twice as much as John, that cheap fuck.  Further, James' motivation for his giving was solely to get one up on John, who he never liked.  Does John's motivation (helping hungry people) make his action more moral than James' motivation (making himself look better than John)?  Remember that in both cases, the end result is the same - people are helped.

2.  Susan sees a money clip lying on the floor of a restaurant.  No one is about, so she scoops it up and uses the money to buy the shoes she's had her eye on but just couldn't afford.  Brenda finds a wallet on a park bench and takes $50 from it to buy the medicine her 6 years old son needs, but which she can't afford.  Does Brenda's motivation (helping her sick child) make her action more moral than Susan's motivation (really cute shoes)?  Remember, in both cases theft has occurred and innocent parties are out money due to the actions of both women.

Boru

1. In and of itself, James' donation could be considered as more morally relevant than John's, since it was bigger. But in the large scheme of things, his motivation for donating reveals something about his character, and thus probably something about his future behaviour - he could end up donating far less than John over the course of his life, simply because of the circumstantial nature of the motive that prompted him to make this particular donation. But in my book, what really counts in the end is the actual effect of our actions, not our intentions. Intentions only matter so far as they help us predict behaviour, otherwise they are meaningless.

2. I sense you're slightly manipulative with the sums of money proposed in the two cases here, but I would've agreed anyway that the health of one citizen trumps the aesthetical aspirations of another. That's a no-brainer right there.
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#4
RE: Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
(May 8, 2016 at 7:07 am)robvalue Wrote: I would say there is no fixed, correct way to "measure" morality. Everyone uses their own method.

Personally, I take as many factors into consideration as possible. I certainly don't just consider outcomes. So yes, for me, motivation makes a difference regarding my assessment.

To show a simple example of why I consider this to be the case:

I hack into a charity's bank account, with the intention of stealing their money. I accidentally give them my money instead, and am then unable to correct my mistake. I would consider the act completely immoral, due to the motivation (and intent), even though the outcome would generally be considered moral if you had no other information.

The act itself isn't immoral, but the motivation behind it makes you immoral, if you wish.

Everyone uses their own method is another way of saying nothing means anything. There are various "correct" ways to measure morality. Laws, for one. In other words, we should both develop and enforce moral systems upon others(that necessarily includes everyone), as should we improve upon them as time moves forward. Fortunately, we've been doing this for millenia, or we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
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#5
RE: Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
Laws are not meant to be morality.

Nothing objectively means anything, yes. Subjectively, things mean plenty.

What does it even mean to say a moral system is "correct"? It can be internally consistent, and it can be very persuasive, and it can be "natural", but I don't see how "correct" comes into it anywhere. Before the goals of morality have been agreed, how can any judgement be made?

If you're just assuming what the goals are, then you've just declared your own version of morality to be morality itself.

We can already easily examine the outcomes of actions in objective ways. Why also measure this as "morality"? That seems redundant, and it's why my morality is much more complex.
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#6
RE: Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
(May 8, 2016 at 8:01 am)robvalue Wrote: Laws are not meant to be morality.

Nothing objectively means anything, yes. Subjectively, things mean plenty.

What does it even mean to say a moral system is "correct"? It can be internally consistent, and it can be very persuasive, and it can be "natural", but I don't see how "correct" comes into it anywhere. Before the goals of morality have been agreed, how can any judgement be made?

If you're just assuming what the goals are, then you've just declared your own version of morality to be morality itself.

We can already easily examine the outcomes of actions in objective ways. Why also measure this as "morality"? That seems redundant, and it's why my morality is much more complex.

The goals are eliminating harm and maximizing happiness. Pretty straightforward and obvious.

Can you think of any situation in which the word "correct" could be applied?

Laws are meant to enforce morality, not to be it. I never said that.
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#7
RE: Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
Yes. One of my motivations is to type as little as possible.
I don't have an anger problem, I have an idiot problem.
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#8
RE: Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
(May 8, 2016 at 8:34 am)mh.brewer Wrote: Yes. One of my motivations is to type as little as possible.

I think that's laziness.
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#9
RE: Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
Those are the goals of morality, according to you EP. What if I don't agree? I'm excluded from the discussion? And what if we interpret those terms in different ways, or consider different groups of things that they should apply to?

No, laws are not meant to enforce morality either. I addressed this in a video I did before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ46w6J10GI
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.

Index of useful threads and discussions
Index of my best videos
Quickstart guide to the forum
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#10
RE: Not A Poll: Does Motivation Affect Morality?
(May 8, 2016 at 8:59 am)robvalue Wrote: Those are the goals of morality, according to you EP. What if I don't agree? I'm excluded from the discussion? And what if we interpret those terms in different ways, or consider different groups of things that they should apply to?

No, laws are not meant to enforce morality either. I addressed this in a video I did before:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jJ46w6J10GI

Keep it fresh, write it out, I don't want to watch a 10 minute video. Unless you actually can't for whatever reason.

What are laws if not an enforcement of morality? It seems to me like that's exactly what they are, can't imagine why you would disagree.
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