Being a sinner just for being born

[robvalue]

Well Steve, like I said, each Christian can just believe whatever they want.

Plenty of people have provided us with that very belief. My original point was to advise you not to generalise, because saying Christians do not believe we get punished for Adam's actions is simply wrong. Some think it, some don't.

[robvalue]

How odd, I'm normally asking theists not to generalise atheists. Now I'm asking a theist not to generalise groups of theists. Oh well.

Seriously, a Christian can believe absolutely anything. Who is going to stop them? If they say they're a Christian, you can point and them and tell them they're not, but your validation is not required.

Of course, joining certain individual sects may require some sort of action.

[Losty]

Yeabut they're only a true Christian if they agree with Steve.

[madog]

Well Steve, like I said, each Christian can just believe whatever they want.
 

That's the problem when discussing anything with Christians, they all argue something different .... I suspect they even change their actual previous beliefs just to win an argument ... arguing against someone that can make stuff up from made up stuff as they go along is so frustrating 

[ApeNotKillApe]

Irrational beliefs are defended irrationally. There's no desire to be consistent, only to blather nothings in response as if any answer spoken is a valid one.

[robvalue]

Yeah... sadly they don't win the argument even when they're allowed to make stuff up and change it. Well, as long as they're at least required to have some sort of internal consistency within their beliefs, and correlation with reality. If that's not required of them, they can "win" just by having contradictory beliefs, which cover all situations, and which needn't be troubled by actual evidence.

What they can do is continue to argue until I get fed up and quit.

I'm not aiming this post at anyone in particular.

[SteveII]

I'm not surprised at Losty's comment, but do you really think Christianity teaches that we are punished for Adam's sin? If so, you really need to learn more about what you are criticizing.


Then you have confused two things.

Original sin is a doctrine that discusses where the sin nature comes from. Why we want to sin? Why a little child intentionally does something he knows is bad? There are many different views on what the Adam story means and what Romans 5 means. But none of those views are that we are punished for someone else's sin. We are punished for our own sin we commit (free will and all). God is not going to say on judgement day, "Adam sinned so you are going to pay for it."  As an illustration, if Christians believed the way you stated, unborn babies, infants and toddlers would go to hell if they died before even learning their first word.

Neither Luther nor Calvin agree with you, according to the following: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_s...eformation

For those that don't feel like clicking on the link, they both claim/affirm that we inherit Adam's sin at birth, and it's only being born again - both through the act of baptism and the acceptance of the holy spirit - that we have a chance for redemption.

So, yeah....

You are still confusing inheriting a sin nature with what you are going to be punished for. 

To be more precise you have to understand the before and after. Before Adam's sin he was righteous and could stand before God (in his presence) "as-is" blameless, without fault, a perfect being, made in the image of God, higher than the angels. After sin, approaching God is no longer possible--he was tainted. The fall was significant because of how high his status was to start. Adam could not help but pass on that tainted state to his offspring. Therefore we inherit a sin nature--a state that requires some kind of repair if we are to get back to the original state.

[Losty]

Well Steve, like I said, each Christian can just believe whatever they want.
 

That's the problem when discussing anything with Christians, they all argue something different .... I suspect they even change their actual previous beliefs just to win an argument ... arguing against someone that can make stuff up from made up stuff as they go along is so frustrating 

Have you ever played make believe with a small child?

No actually you can't destroy my evil minions with your laser eyes because you don't have them anymore because you sneezed and now you a bunny with no teeth. No you can't grow new teeth because it's against the new rule I just made that says you can't grow teeth if you're a bunny.

[Silver]

 

To be more precise you have to understand the before and after. Before Adam's sin he was righteous and could stand before God (in his presence) "as-is" blameless, without fault, a perfect being, made in the image of God, higher than the angels. After sin, approaching God is no longer possible--he was tainted. The fall was significant because of how high his status was to start. Adam could not help but pass on that tainted state to his offspring. Therefore we inherit a sin nature--a state that requires some kind of repair if we are to get back to the original state.

In other words:

A bunch of poorly thought out fictional hooey written by some deranged individual.

[robvalue]

That's your interpretation Steve. You don't get to speak for all Christians.