Atheism and Purpose

[Edward the Theist]

It will be interesting to see what atheists think of it.

I'm going to go ahead and predict that I will find it to be an utter waste of time. What credentials do you have that make you so confident that you will be able to disprove neurologists?

Neurologists have no more idea where consciousness comes from than anyone else. I'm sorry you think they do, and that they've concluded it's a result of the human brain, and even more that they are right. You need to read a little more about the theories of mind in order to realize that consciousness is one of the most contested areas in neurobiology.

One thing is pretty clear, consciousness affects the brain. If you are on the side of the fence that says the brain produces the consciousness that affects it, you have a huge amount of evidence as well as problems and paradoxes. If you are on the side of the fence that says consciousness is external to the brain, you have a huge amount of evidence and problems and paradoxes.

But make no mistake, the study of consciousness is the next frontier. Physics is all but dead as a science. In fact, almost all branches of theoretical science are nearly dead. Until we have a theory of consciousness, we aren't going to be able to go any further in our search for the truth about our cosmos.

But we're not ready for that yet. So, consciousness is the subject of kooks and quacks. Every idiot has a theory about it. Granted, I'm one of them, but what can I do? I have a purpose I must pursue. My life is worth nothing else.

You've already made up your mind about my paper before you've even seen it. And you're different from the fundamentalists, how?

Look, I don't have scientific creditials. If my theories don't sound true, then maybe they are wrong, but they seem right to me. I'm wondering if they will seem right to others, but in the end, unless someone can refute them, it really doesn't matter. If I am able to complete my theory of cosmology, all I am hoping for is that it is internally consistent. It will take smarter people than me to prove or disprove it. All I'm hoping for is to start the work; others will have to finish it in the end, if it's even worth finishing.

I am a psychiatric nurse. I worked in the ICU for five years, including neuro-ICU. I have an A.ASc. in nursing and a B.Sc. in liberal arts with depth groups in psychology and sociology. I have studied the theory of monism and consciousness for the last 16 years. But even before you criticize all that, I already am aware that those credentials don't mean very much.

This paper, which I will hopefully finish tomorrow, is the very first start in what I hope will be a good theory of cosmology. It provides, what I believe to be good evidence for concluding that consciousness is external to central nervous systems. We'll see.

Tell me, do you think you will be able to refute it? Or will you wait for an atheist neurologist with an axe to grind to tell you it's all bullshit? You see, you establish your credibility by hopefully following the right people. You don't really have anything original to offer yourself, do you?

[KichigaiNeko]

You've already made up your mind about my paper before you've even seen it.

So where is it??

And please stop being so paranoid and assuming that YOU are the only one that knows what WE are thinking.

Would you like a tissue??

[Shell B]

Neurologists have no more idea where consciousness comes from than anyone else. I'm sorry you think they do, and that they've concluded it's a result of the human brain, and even more that they are right. You need to read a little more about the theories of mind in order to realize that consciousness is one of the most contested areas in neurobiology.

Neurologists can tell you, to some extent, what parts of the brain go out of whack when you become unconscious and what parts are active when you are conscious. I would say they are leaps and bounds ahead of you and me in regard to that little nugget.

I don't need to read any crackpot theories about consciousness. I have read enough crackpot theories, thank you very much. Furthermore, it is only contested because people like you cannot accept that consciousness is not some sort of spiritual thing. It just will not register with you, no matter how many facts are thrown at you.

One thing is pretty clear, consciousness affects the brain. If you are on the side of the fence that says the brain produces the consciousness that affects it, you have a huge amount of evidence as well as problems and paradoxes. If you are on the side of the fence that says consciousness is external to the brain, you have a huge amount of evidence and problems and paradoxes.

So, in other words, my 'theory' is as viable as yours and you are not forming a superior hypothesis? Shit, I thought that was your whole angle.

But make no mistake, the study of consciousness is the next frontier. Physics is all but dead as a science. In fact, almost all branches of theoretical science are nearly dead. Until we have a theory of consciousness, we aren't going to be able to go any further in our search for the truth about our cosmos.

Um, do you just spout off whatever comes to your mind? Prove that physics is almost dead as a science. In fact, why don't you show me how many schools offer consciousness as a major as opposed to physics? As far as that last bit there, tell that to NASA.

But we're not ready for that yet. So, consciousness is the subject of kooks and quacks. Every idiot has a theory about it. Granted, I'm one of them, but what can I do? I have a purpose I must pursue. My life is worth nothing else.

It's not because we're not ready for it. Furthermore, consciousness is discussed by 'normal' people all the time. I'm sorry that your life is that meaningless. Honestly.

You've already made up your mind about my paper before you've even seen it.

Yep. There are times for withholding judgment. This isn't one of them.

And you're different from the fundamentalists, how?

I don't believe in god. Still not getting the whole atheism thing, are you?

[Edward the Theist]

Because the mods would rather remove an entire section of functionality than deal with abusive posters.

I don't understand what that means. So much for reputation points. If I was a -7 asshole one minute and a normal person the next, so much for reputation. It kind of reminds me of indulgences, for all you Catholic historians out there. The moderators have decreed my sin is gone. How lovely.

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

Neurologists have no more idea where consciousness comes from than anyone else. I'm sorry you think they do, and that they've concluded it's a result of the human brain, and even more that they are right. You need to read a little more about the theories of mind in order to realize that consciousness is one of the most contested areas in neurobiology.

I'm sorry, did you just accuse people who've studied how the human brain works that they know less about conciousness and the inner workings of the human mind than any other person?
I've recently saw on the science channel where a group of scientists successfully gave a woman an out-of-body experience (the woman, at best, was agnostic) by stimulating a particular cluster of neurons.

It's even easily googleale - http://www.time.com/time/health/article/...32,00.html
here - http://www.nytimes.com/2006/10/03/health...3shad.html
here - http://archives.cnn.com/2002/TECH/scienc...outofbody/
and here - http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/sh.../5841/1048

You may be right in that we have many competing theories on the nature of conciousness and the science of it hasn't yet been pinned down, but accusing scientists who exclusively and professionally study the brain and conciousness to know less than laymen on this science is frankly ridiculous and outright ignorant.

But make no mistake, the study of consciousness is the next frontier. Physics is all but dead as a science. In fact, almost all branches of theoretical science are nearly dead. Until we have a theory of consciousness, we aren't going to be able to go any further in our search for the truth about our cosmos.

I can't even begin to explain just how much of a absolute failure of a statement this is. Every branch of science is not only still making wonderful discoveries that make headlines virtually every day, but the number of such discoveries is not only increasing, but accelerating.
Saying otherwise is a practice in ignorance so massive that I struggle to comprehend what kind of hole you had to live in in order to miss that kind of knowledge.

You've already made up your mind about my paper before you've even seen it. And you're different from the fundamentalists, how?

It doesn't appear to be promising. So far, you've made clear that it's not a scientific paper and you've stated that neurologists are irrelevant to understanding human conciousness and that the only frontier of science worth doing is the study of the conciousness.
You've acknowledged that the article is not only not a scientific paper, but hasn't even been peer reviewed by anyone in any field related to the science of the brain.
So no, neither I nor anyone else has any reason, even this early, to find that it has any validity in what it promises to expose as truth.

[Edward the Theist]

Neurologists can tell you, to some extent, what parts of the brain go out of whack when you become unconscious and what parts are active when you are conscious. I would say they are leaps and bounds ahead of you and me in regard to that little nugget.

No, they're leaps ahead of you on that. For instance, you don't seem to realize that an MRI tech can tell you the same thing. What neither of them can tell you is whether or not an injured brain has stopped producing consciousness or has stopped being able to use consciousness.

I fell once while ice climbing and was knocked unconscious. All I saw during that time was a green light. So, was I unconscious? When people die in the ICU they become like furniture. One time I talked to a dead person for about thirty seconds before I realized they were dead. Now, that's unconscious! An EEG for that person would've been flat, absolutely. But it still wouldn't answer the question as to what comes first: Does consciousness need a working brain to be obvious to the rest of us, or does consciousness arise from a working brain? Honestly, I don't think neurologists are even the people to answer this question; I think ultimately cosmologists will.

I don't need to read any crackpot theories about consciousness. I have read enough crackpot theories, thank you very much. Furthermore, it is only contested because people like you cannot accept that consciousness is not some sort of spiritual thing. It just will not register with you, no matter how many facts are thrown at you.

Ah, I see. You're like a redneck atheist. You don't need no dang crackpot theories about consciousness! On MSNBC they got them there celebrity neurologists who say all I need to hear, by god...by matter.

Um, do you just spout off whatever comes to your mind? Prove that physics is almost dead as a science. In fact, why don't you show me how many schools offer consciousness as a major as opposed to physics? As far as that last bit there, tell that to NASA.

Did you just say NASA? Heehee. QED I think. Talk about dead physics. All the physics NASA needs has already been formulated. I know, I know, you think we're going to seed other planets with humans. The great atheist hope. Call this a prophecy if you like, but this is what I think: we are going to die out, and civilization will definitely die out, long before we are ever able to escape our solar system, and we can't live anywhere but earth. We could have gone to Mars 30 years ago. We already have that technology. But there's no point. There's no point in even going to the moon again.

It's not because we're not ready for it. Furthermore, consciousness is discussed by 'normal' people all the time. I'm sorry that your life is that meaningless. Honestly.

Ah, but my life isn't meaningless. I'm a medical professional, and I care for people in the course of my job three days a week, and when I'm not doing that, I think I really have a new cosmology that I am working on. It keeps me constantly interested in higher mathematics and cutting edge research on consciousness--the next frontier. If I didn't have that it would be meaningless. How 'bout you?

Oh, and I might as well add (I mean when talking to a religious atheist fundamentalist, what difference could it make?): I believe God, my Father, has given it all to me.

[Shell B]

No, they're leaps ahead of you on that.

You're insufferable. You realize that, right?

For instance, you don't seem to realize that an MRI tech can tell you the same thing.

Where in this conversation have we discussed what MRI techs are incapable of? Ah, so you're making a leap? Awesome.

What neither of them can tell you is whether or not an injured brain has stopped producing consciousness or has stopped being able to use consciousness.

Bullshit. When you cannot respond to outside stimuli, you are unconscious. Edit: I should elaborate. Consciousness (according to some definitions) is an alert cognitive state. You can't use that or not use it. You are either in it or not. So, if you are not alert, you do not have consciousness. Your brain doesn't produce it. It is a state of being that is controlled by your brain.

I fell once while ice climbing and was knocked unconscious. All I saw during that time was a green light.

That explains a shitload.

So, was I unconscious?

Uh, yeah, like, duh. You can dream when you are unconscious. I suppose you can see a green light as well.

When people die in the ICU they become like furniture. One time I talked to a dead person for about thirty seconds before I realized they were dead. Now, that's unconscious!

No, smarty-pants. That's dead!

An EEG for that person would've been flat, absolutely. But it still wouldn't answer the question as to what comes first: Does consciousness need a working brain to be obvious to the rest of us, or does consciousness arise from a working brain?

If your brain doesn't work, you lose consciousness. Although, a perfectly good brain loses consciousness once a day, hopefully. What about that don't you get? If consciousness is gone when your brain does whatever it is that neither of us understands, than consciousness comes from the brain. It is simple. You are basically asking the what came first the chicken or the egg question and then adding, but do you need the egg to make the chicken? To most people, the answer would be obvious.

Honestly, I don't think neurologists are even the people to answer this question; I think ultimately cosmologists will.

Okey-dokey.

Ah, I see. You're like a redneck atheist. You don't need no dang crackpot theories about consciousness! On MSNBC they got them there celebrity neurologists who say all I need to hear, by god...by matter.

And you're a self-important douchebag with delusions of grandeur. (See, I can name call too. Mine are better, though. ) I don't need crackpot theories because they are a waste of time. Deduce all you want from it. It's simply a matter of not bothering to read shit by people who waste their time trying to answer questions that they are not qualified to address. Then, there are people like you who do that and then put on airs. You strut around (so to speak) acting like you are an authority on the subject.

Did you just say NASA? Heehee. QED I think. Talk about dead physics. All the physics NASA needs has already been formulated.

Are you a physicist? Are you even any kind of scientist at all? Not the mommy says I'm smart kind, that is. No? Than you're spouting off again.

I know, I know, you think we're going to seed other planets with humans. The great atheist hope.

Did I say that? No? You should close off that spout.

Call this a prophecy if you like, but this is what I think: we are going to die out, and civilization will definitely die out, long before we are ever able to escape our solar system, and we can't live anywhere but earth. We could have gone to Mars 30 years ago. We already have that technology. But there's no point. There's no point in even going to the moon again.

You could be right, but I won't call it prophesy. If you're right about anything, I would call it blind luck. Well, you could be right about some of it, but having the technology to go to Mars? Are you talking about people landing on Mars?

Ah, but my life isn't meaningless. I'm a medical professional, and I care for people in the course of my job three days a week, and when I'm not doing that, I think I really have a new cosmology that I am working on.

Fuck me running, that's the scariest thing I have ever heard. I hope you are a pathological liar. I'm not being sarcastic, either. The thought that they let you care for people scares the shit out of me. It explains a lot about health care, though. Update: Checked your profile, psych nurse, eh. I don't know if that's a relief or even more frightening.

It keeps me constantly interested in higher mathematics and cutting edge research on consciousness--the next frontier. .

How 'bout you?

My life is wonderful, thank you.

Oh, and I might as well add (I mean when talking to a religious atheist fundamentalist, what difference could it make?): I believe God, my Father, has given it all to me.

He gave you the shit end of the stick, buddy.

[ABierman1986]

Hey Ed, I've been sifting through the name calling and emotional outbursts to try and see what your actual points are on consciousness (great way to present an argument btw), could you summarize your main points so I can get this clear

[TheDarkestOfAngels]

No, they're leaps ahead of you on that. For instance, you don't seem to realize that an MRI tech can tell you the same thing. What neither of them can tell you is whether or not an injured brain has stopped producing consciousness or has stopped being able to use consciousness.

Actually, they can tell by the level of activity in the brain. That's what MRIs are built to do. They can tell what the normal parameters of brain activity is and they can tell when the brain is over active, under active, and which parts of the brain are required for certain functions - including whether or not you're concious.
So... yeah. You're completely and utterly wrong.

I fell once while ice climbing and was knocked unconscious. All I saw during that time was a green light. So, was I unconscious? When people die in the ICU they become like furniture. One time I talked to a dead person for about thirty seconds before I realized they were dead. Now, that's unconscious! An EEG for that person would've been flat, absolutely. But it still wouldn't answer the question as to what comes first: Does consciousness need a working brain to be obvious to the rest of us, or does consciousness arise from a working brain? Honestly, I don't think neurologists are even the people to answer this question; I think ultimately cosmologists will.

Yes. Yes it does. People who go unconcious and then become concious again have given testimony to that end.
But no, cosmologists don't study the brain. They study cosmology. So... wrong again on both counts.

Ah, I see. You're like a redneck atheist. You don't need no dang crackpot theories about consciousness! On MSNBC they got them there celebrity neurologists who say all I need to hear, by god...by matter.

Once again resorting to insults in lieu of making any kind of relevant point...

Did you just say NASA? Heehee. QED I think. Talk about dead physics. All the physics NASA needs has already been formulated. I know, I know, you think we're going to seed other planets with humans. The great atheist hope. Call this a prophecy if you like, but this is what I think: we are going to die out, and civilization will definitely die out, long before we are ever able to escape our solar system, and we can't live anywhere but earth. We could have gone to Mars 30 years ago. We already have that technology. But there's no point. There's no point in even going to the moon again.

Uh, no. Absolutely wrong.
We barely even have the technology or necessary knowledge now. We didn't even know the moon (or mars) had much if any water until just a few years ago. We're still not entirely certain how to keep astronaughts alive for a long enough time to make any such long-term committment. Thirty years ago, we were barely aware of the horrible ways you could die even with a space suit in open space with things like solar flare and related sun-based radiation (which could have easily ended Apollo 11), cosmic rays, or even micro-asteroids, in which a pebble-sized bullet could effectively end a mission if it punches through the right part of a shuttle or space ship headed to mars.
So... again... you're absolutely wrong.

[Edwardo Piet]

Neurologists have no more idea where consciousness comes from than anyone else.

Who says it needs to "come from" anywhere in addition to parts of the brain that change when consciousness changes?

One thing is pretty clear, consciousness affects the brain.

You state that as if consciousness is separate. What makes you think that is the case? If consciousness is affected when the brain is affected and vice versa.... maybe, just maybe - consciousness is the brain (or perhaps rather, part of it).