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RE: If free will was not real
July 29, 2016 at 4:01 am
(July 28, 2016 at 10:35 pm)Jehanne Wrote: (July 27, 2016 at 11:07 pm)Excited Penguin Wrote: What?!
I think consciousness isn't a mystery at all and is already explained, at some level, by what we already know about the brain. It's simply a set of functions of the brain, I believe, something evolution built into us to be better able to survive. That we make much ado about nothing, is simply a side-effect.
Sean Carroll is a compatibilist; he seems like a nice guy, a good atheist.
Lmao, what are you talking about, for the third time in a row now?
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RE: If free will was not real
July 29, 2016 at 4:15 am
(This post was last modified: July 29, 2016 at 4:16 am by bennyboy.)
(July 29, 2016 at 3:55 am)quip Wrote: (July 28, 2016 at 11:26 pm)bennyboy Wrote: "will" is the capacity of a sentient agent to realize intent-- for example, I don't really know how to "move" a leg-- I want it to move, and it moves.
Then the will falls under the constraint of intended realization. Moreover, are your intentions freely wrought? How can any of this be considered free? Intentions are of the self-- feelings, memories, personality, etc. I don't think it makes sense to categorize them as "free" any more than it does to categorize my foot as free. It is the capacity, once the intent is in place, to REALIZE it which I call will. Ans since will is the bridge between intent and its physical expression, any physical impediment or obstacle to the expression of intent limits its freedom.
Quote:Your argument is akin to a man held within a cell proclaiming that he holds the willful capacity to freely move about his environs all for the effort of denying his ambient constraints.
At best....it's superficial.
It might seem superficial until you don't have free will. If you are compelled or blocked from making decisions and acting on them, freedom will be real enough concept for you, I'm sure.
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RE: If free will was not real
July 29, 2016 at 4:21 am
(This post was last modified: July 29, 2016 at 4:23 am by quip.)
(July 29, 2016 at 4:15 am)bennyboy Wrote: (July 29, 2016 at 3:55 am)quip Wrote: Then the will falls under the constraint of intended realization. Moreover, are your intentions freely wrought? How can any of this be considered free? Intentions are of the self-- feelings, memories, personality, etc. I don't think it makes sense to categorize them as "free" any more than it does to categorize my foot as free.
Then don't introduce intention as a supporting argument for free-will. Senselessness. 
Quote:Quote:Your argument is akin to a man held within a cell proclaiming that he holds the willful capacity to freely move about his environs all for the effort of denying his ambient constraints.
At best....it's superficial.
It might seem superficial until you don't have free will. If you are compelled or blocked from making decisions and acting on them, freedom will be real enough concept for you, I'm sure.
The will is quite significant...the bland assertion that it's free...well, not so much.
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RE: If free will was not real
July 29, 2016 at 5:41 am
(This post was last modified: July 29, 2016 at 5:44 am by bennyboy.)
(July 29, 2016 at 4:21 am)quip Wrote: (July 29, 2016 at 4:15 am)bennyboy Wrote: Intentions are of the self-- feelings, memories, personality, etc. I don't think it makes sense to categorize them as "free" any more than it does to categorize my foot as free.
Then don't introduce intention as a supporting argument for free-will. Senselessness.
Intention isn't a supporting argument for free will. Will is the expression of intent. Free will is the expression of intent unfettered by obstacles or compulsions from the world outside the acting agent.
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RE: If free will was not real
July 29, 2016 at 5:52 am
There are many obstacles to the will though.
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RE: If free will was not real
July 29, 2016 at 6:57 am
(July 29, 2016 at 5:52 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: There are many obstacles to the will though.
No doubt. Sometimes the will is not free. For example, except among very exceptional people, the intent to get away from extreme pain is absolutely dictated by external sources.
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RE: If free will was not real
July 29, 2016 at 7:01 am
You sound like a compatabilist, compatabilist free will is real.
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RE: If free will was not real
July 29, 2016 at 8:10 am
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RE: If free will was not real
July 29, 2016 at 10:46 am
(This post was last modified: July 29, 2016 at 10:51 am by bennyboy.)
(July 29, 2016 at 7:01 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: You sound like a compatabilist, compatabilist free will is real.
Given a physical universe and nothing more, I'm a compatibilist. But EVEN IF there were a transdimensional, magical soul, I don't think "free will" could mean "free from causality." Whatever the self is, whether we fully understand it or not, it almost surely is part of a causal process-- unless it is eternal, which is another argument entirely. Now, I'm not making any argument about soul or anything-- I'm just saying that my view on free will pretty much works either way.
Right now, the popular view at least here is the physical monism. In that context, I'd say yeah I'm pretty close to Dennett or someone like that.
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RE: If free will was not real
July 29, 2016 at 10:49 am
I can't not believe in compatabilst free will, and I can't believe in incompatabilist free will.
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