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Free Will is a sign if God's inescapable weakness
November 20, 2017 at 12:46 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2017 at 12:56 pm by AtheistNexus.)
Something from a book I am writing, that got my theist friend wiled up:
1. The job of machine learning researchers is to make smart software that do things that humans are effortlessly good at, like recognizing images.
2. These smart software are loosely inspired by the human brain, so they can learn somewhat like humans do.
3. These researchers, because they are non omniscient, they don't know how to make the perfectly smart software. As a result, the smart software that they build have to learn by trial and error/make mistakes in order to get better at doing tasks.
4. In a similar way, if Gods really gave humans free will, humans are using this free will to do both good and bad, but humans have actually learnt how to get better and better and less violent over the centuries.
5. This then has a surprising consequence; why would God need to give humans the chance to learn by free will, if God was smart enough to make perfect beings without the need to learn by trial and error? It implies that if free will is God given, God is non omniscient/non omnipotent in a similar way to how machine learning researchers are non omniscient, and therefore make smart software that need to learn by trial/error to get better at tasks!!!
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RE: Free Will is a sign if God's inescapable weakness
November 20, 2017 at 12:50 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2017 at 12:51 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
You dont believe in God, so why concern yourself with what He's like?
Anyway, there have been a ton of threads here about free will and why God granted it to us. There was just one recently that I'll try to find and post here.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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RE: Free Will is a sign if God's inescapable weakness
November 20, 2017 at 1:02 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2017 at 1:04 pm by AtheistNexus.)
(November 20, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You dont believe in God, so why concern yourself with what He's like?
Anyway, there have been a ton of threads here about free will and why God granted it to us. There was just one recently that I'll try to find and post here.
I doubt any of those threads are as convincing as my thread here.
I actually got my theist friend so riled up, that she ended up saying her God was both omniscient/omnipotent, and limited. (I've never heard her say that God was limited before... It was a contradiction that was easy for her to see, although she didn't admit it...)
We haven't talked in 3 weeks now 
I make talks like these to get my theist friends to think seriously about their religion, without invoking God's non existence. (This way they don't feel threatened)
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RE: Free Will is a sign if God's inescapable weakness
November 20, 2017 at 1:03 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2017 at 1:07 pm by purplepurpose.)
People guess what God is judging by themselves and others. If he is The Creator, He MUST be strongest, invincible and so on. Your doing the same thing - speculating. Invisible and magical God is this and that etc. It's pointless.
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RE: Free Will is a sign if God's inescapable weakness
November 20, 2017 at 1:07 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2017 at 1:11 pm by AtheistNexus.)
(November 20, 2017 at 1:03 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: People guess what God is judging by themselves and others. Your doing the same thing - speculating. Invisible magical God is this and that etc. It's pointless.
..but.., but using "free will" as a tool for thought.
Of course, "free will" is largely popular wrt deities, and I don't subscribe to any of that mess.
However, it is a useful tool for riling up thoughts.
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RE: Free Will is a sign if God's inescapable weakness
November 20, 2017 at 1:18 pm
Every time you say "Free will" I think "Square circle". Meh.
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RE: Free Will is a sign if God's inescapable weakness
November 20, 2017 at 1:24 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2017 at 1:26 pm by purplepurpose.)
(November 20, 2017 at 1:07 pm)AtheistNexus Wrote: (November 20, 2017 at 1:03 pm)purplepurpose Wrote: People guess what God is judging by themselves and others. Your doing the same thing - speculating. Invisible magical God is this and that etc. It's pointless.
..but.., but using "free will" as a tool for thought.
Of course, "free will" is largely popular wrt deities, and I don't subscribe to any of that mess.
However, it is a useful tool for riling up thoughts.
From what I have read here ,the problem most atheists here have with God is that he views people as item's - promises torture of extreme intensity(according to the scripture) if they don't meet his standart. Free will and other hate from atheists is motivated from hell promise.
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RE: Free Will is a sign if God's inescapable weakness
November 20, 2017 at 1:26 pm
(November 20, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You dont believe in God, so why concern yourself with what He's like?
Anyway, there have been a ton of threads here about free will and why God granted it to us. There was just one recently that I'll try to find and post here.
(November 20, 2017 at 1:02 pm)AtheistNexus Wrote: (November 20, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You dont believe in God, so why concern yourself with what He's like?
Anyway, there have been a ton of threads here about free will and why God granted it to us. There was just one recently that I'll try to find and post here.
I doubt any of those threads are as convincing as my thread here.
I actually got my theist friend so riled up, that she ended up saying her God was both omniscient/omnipotent, and limited. (I've never heard her say that God was limited before... It was a contradiction that was easy for her to see, although she didn't admit it...)
We haven't talked in 3 weeks now
I make talks like these to get my theist friends to think seriously about their religion, without invoking God's non existence. (This way they don't feel threatened)
Oh happy day, C_L. With this thread you can look forward to becoming really riled up. Good times!
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RE: Free Will is a sign if God's inescapable weakness
November 20, 2017 at 1:45 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2017 at 1:52 pm by The Grand Nudger.)
I think you misunderstand the purpose of free will in the religious narrative, OP. It's not there so that we can learn something (some would go so far as to tell you it's not there at all, in the narrative - for another time). It;s there to circumscribe the borders of moral culpability for obeisance to social norms purported to derive from divine authority. It exists solely to provide a rationalization for righteousness of divine condemnation....but, much more commonly, for the very real and very earthly punishments man seeks to dole out in god's stead. Ancient religions, or modern secular legal systems - it's purpose is the same. A useful fiction.
It's existence or lack thereof says nothing about gods, it really never had anything to do with gods in the first place. Supposing we find a demonstration of the complete vacuity of the concept tomorrow (this is assuming we don't have it today for no reason other than discussion), the religious will simply go back to claiming that we do not have free will. That their scriptures always knew this. That all is and all will be as god wills, and our only true choice in any matter is to obey...and, perhaps...we don't even have a choice in that.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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RE: Free Will is a sign if God's inescapable weakness
November 20, 2017 at 1:54 pm
(This post was last modified: November 20, 2017 at 2:01 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(November 20, 2017 at 1:26 pm)Whateverist Wrote: (November 20, 2017 at 12:50 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: You dont believe in God, so why concern yourself with what He's like?
Anyway, there have been a ton of threads here about free will and why God granted it to us. There was just one recently that I'll try to find and post here.
(November 20, 2017 at 1:02 pm)AtheistNexus Wrote: I doubt any of those threads are as convincing as my thread here.
I actually got my theist friend so riled up, that she ended up saying her God was both omniscient/omnipotent, and limited. (I've never heard her say that God was limited before... It was a contradiction that was easy for her to see, although she didn't admit it...)
We haven't talked in 3 weeks now
I make talks like these to get my theist friends to think seriously about their religion, without invoking God's non existence. (This way they don't feel threatened)
Oh happy day, C_L. With this thread you can look forward to becoming really riled up. Good times!
LOL, right?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
-walsh
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