Understanding atoms.

[CoxRox]

I suggest that it was pure chance, or luck, depending upon your point of view.

Imagine if they hadn't come together in quite the way that they did. Then the universe would be unstable and incapable of supporting life and you wouldn't be here to ask the question.

Or, you would be asking the same question of a slightly different universe. I can imagine that there are an infinite number of universes out there in hyperspace and only by chance do some of them create stable enough environments for life to evolve and ask these questions.

The forces or laws that hold atoms together or rather 'encourage' the particles to come together in just the right measure, are very mysterious. Why is there this order? How is it maintained? Does another 'order' maintain this order?

[Darwinian]

The forces that control atoms are the strong and weak nuclear force and of course electro magnetism. If these forces were any stronger or weaker then atoms would become unstable and would not exist as we know them. Hence the Universe would be a very different place.

I think what you are driving at is that there 'has' to be a reason why they are the way they are and that it all seems so 'fine tuned' that it isn't unreasonable to presume some sort of divine tuner.

The problem with that is that this divine tuner has to be at least as complex as the system that he has set up and so that doesn't really answer anything.

To answer the question, Why is there this order? The answer must be simply because there is. It must exist for us to be able to pose the question in the first place. We obviously live in a Universe that is capable of supporting life because we are here.

Again, and I know I keep banging on about this, the Universe is the way it is because it is the one that we live in. It can be no other way as we would not be here to ask these questions.

You use the phrase "Just in the right measure". Right for who? This suggests that there was a purpose for the Universe but, the Universe had no plans for its future. It simply is the way it is because that's the way it is. This is also true for many other Universes that are no doubt very different with various tuning to the 20 or so constants that ours have.

None of these that are unstable unlike ours will harbour life asking why their Universe is chaotic and random and incapable of supporting life. It's only those systems that 'work' where the conditions for such a question can arise in the first place.

And if another order maintains this order then what maintains the first order, and so on.

The trouble is that we are only aware of one Universe with one set of laws. If we could 'see' all the others then we would no doubt understand that it is all just luck and the only reason things are the way they are is because we were lucky enough to have been born in a Universe that allowed such things.

What I'm really talking about is the rather misunderstood anthropic principle.

[Purple Rabbit]

The forces or laws that hold atoms together or rather 'encourage' the particles to come together in just the right measure, are very mysterious. Why is there this order? How is it maintained? Does another 'order' maintain this order?

The why question can always be stated, whatever 'explanation' is provided. This will lead to infinite regress. When order in all cases supposes order, infinite regress will result. The question that has to be answered first is on what criterions you decide to stop to ask the question. When is the questioner satisfied? Can you give your answer on that?

[CoxRox]

The forces that control atoms are the strong and weak nuclear force and of course electro magnetism. If these forces were any stronger or weaker then atoms would become unstable and would not exist as we know them. Hence the Universe would be a very different place.

I think what you are driving at is that there 'has' to be a reason why they are the way they are and that it all seems so 'fine tuned' that it isn't unreasonable to presume some sort of divine tuner.

Yes and not just that but how is the fine tuning kept finely tuned? Let's suppose 'chance' gives rise to just the right conditions for the subatomic particles to form. How are the conditions maintained to give rise to all these chances?

The problem with that is that this divine tuner has to be at least as complex as the system that he has set up and so that doesn't really answer anything.

Maybe it's not complex the way we imagine it must be.

To answer the question, Why is there this order? The answer must be simply because there is. It must exist for us to be able to pose the question in the first place. We obviously live in a Universe that is capable of supporting life because we are here.

Again, and I know I keep banging on about this, the Universe is the way it is because it is the one that we live in. It can be no other way as we would not be here to ask these questions.

I have no problem with this. I'm asking 'why' and 'how'. How is this universe 'held together' or rather how are the laws that hold together the universe etc, held together?

You use the phrase "Just in the right measure". Right for who? For the atoms to form This suggests that there was a purpose for the Universe but, the Universe had no plans for its future. It simply is the way it is because that's the way it is. This is also true for many other Universes that are no doubt very different with various tuning to the 20 or so constants that ours have.
When you look at your new born baby, do you really believe that it's just chance that such 'miracles' exist? The complexity that has evolved, and that seems steered, can give rise to such a miracle? I can't view this as just 'chance'. It goes against my senses.

None of these that are unstable unlike ours will harbour life asking why their Universe is chaotic and random and incapable of supporting life. It's only those systems that 'work' where the conditions for such a question can arise in the first place.

And if another order maintains this order then what maintains the first order, and so on. The trouble is that we are only aware of one Universe with one set of laws. If we could 'see' all the others then we would no doubt understand that it is all just luck and the only reason things are the way they are is because we were lucky enough to have been born in a Universe that allowed such things.

What I'm really talking about is the rather misunderstood anthropic principle.

[Darwinian]

Yes and not just that but how is the fine tuning kept finely tuned? Let's suppose 'chance' gives rise to just the right conditions for the subatomic particles to form. How are the conditions maintained to give rise to all these chances?

There is nothing external or supervisory that keeps atoms stable. Once it has formed it stayed that way unless something else affects it. Once the stage has been set then everything else will follow. Anyway, this fine-tuning as you call it won't last forever. Eventually the forces keeping atoms together will break down and matter as we know it will cease to exist. Then the Universe will simply be a vast empty void containing the very simplest sub atomic particles.

You could argue that the Universe we have today, full of stars, planets, galaxies, life etc. is just the afterglow from the big bang and the ultimate fate and life for the Universe is something very cold and alien where the quantum world will reign supreme.

It's all to do with perspective.

When you look at your new born baby, do you really believe that it's just chance that such 'miracles' exist? The complexity that has evolved, and that seems steered, can give rise to such a miracle? I can't view this as just 'chance'. It goes against my senses.

We obviously have very different ways of looking at things. When I see a new born baby, as I have done twice now I see something beautiful, incredible, amazing and very special. However, I don't see it as a miracle. If fact it can't be a miracle as this sort of things is going on all the time. If anything, it is the very opposite of a miracle and somehow calling it that is somehow a slight against the wonders of nature that have allowed it to happen in the first place.

A baby being born isn't simply chance. It is quite literally 13.7 billions years of cause and effect (quantum mechanics not withstanding) and like all of us, we can trace our roots back to the big bang.

If I thought that somehow, the complexity of a new born baby was a miracle caused by a supernatural being who had planned everything out in advance it would be a massive anti-climax. For me, the wonder is that something so unique and precious can arise simply from such humble and random beginnings.

[Edwardo Piet]

And natural selection is of course not chance. Its the opposite. A baby is not a miracle because us humans evolved from single celled organisms! Its totally natural. If evolution was 100% random blind chance then it wouldn't work.
evf
EDIT:1300th post