New Rule: No Personal Attacks

[Scented Nectar]

Before I take off, my room-mate was wondering something when looking over my shoulder one day. I keep forgetting to ask. What does the sign at the top, "Afresh Black" mean?

[Tiberius]

Are you still using the stealth theme? You can change that in your User CP...

[fr0d0]

It means you have the stealth theme activated in your preferences Scented Nectar. "Afresh Black" is the name of the theme and you'd change it to your site logo.

If you select non stealth mode then you'll see the pretty Atheist forums logo. (Atheists are so dumb )

[Scented Nectar]

It means you have the stealth theme activated in your preferences Scented Nectar. "Afresh Black" is the name of the theme and you'd change it to your site logo.

It was a while back that I messed around with the settings. I had forgotten the name of the one I picked.

If you select non stealth mode then you'll see the pretty Atheist forums logo. (Atheists are so dumb )

But my room-mate is a deist. If this means that deists are dumb too, then I better not tell her, or she`ll never make me pancakes again for being the bearer of such bad news. She makes really good pancakes. I`m hoping for more this weekend.

Thanks for letting me know what the logo is about, you guys.

[Tiberius]

I changed your theme back for you Now you can enjoy our logo.

[Violet]

Well I guess I lied Tiberius, I am going to open one post up to your moderation. I apologize for the lying, but I didn't think that you would post my PMs to you on the forum so as to give me a chance to publicly respond (i don't mind of course, though I am very aggravated that you banned me so as to be unable to respond to it).

I'm flinging insults around because I am very angryface with many of the decisions made by the staff recently, haven't received my apology, and am being absolutely honest about how i feel. I am sick and tired of feeling threatened by the forum staff. I do not want to feel threatened by the forum staff.

Other people are angry; they haven't resorted to throwing insults around. It is a childish thing to do. You don't deserve an apology; none of the staff did anything against the rules in your case. You don't have anything to fear from the forum staff, unless you break the rules. If you don't want to feel threatened, don't break the rules. Simple.

Ad hominem attacks are a logical fallacy... to allow people to make every fallacy except one is pathetic. If it is so childish, why is it I never see children do it... only adults and teenagers?

Oh... so because it is not against the rules, I don't deserve an apology? Thanks... I'll keep that in mind the first time I see rape is not against the rules. A thing being against the rules doesn't make it wrong (gay marriage anyone?)... just as a thing being allowed doesn't mean it is right. Ruleless societies don't last long because people make rules off of what they feel is right and wrong. I feel reading someone's PMs without asking them (If you'd have just asked, I would be a lot less angry with you) is wrong. I feel holding too dearly to one's rules is wrong. I feel caring more about rules than about loyalty, companionship, and friends is wrong. I think it's wrong to not be open to people's honest opinions... and I know it's wrong to allow others to insult me while I am banned for insulting them. I was clear with you... very honest with you... very upset with you. You didn't ask me what I meant... you didn't care that I was being honest of my opinion... and you didn't try to work with me about it. Yes, I feel I deserve an apology. No, I do not think one is forthcoming.

I don't have to feel threatened by the staff while I'm not breaking rules? Then why did I feel threatened by one of them since I signed up, Tiberius? Eilonnwy is not a good person to have in possession of power as I see it. The reality is that she is an emotional bomb that can't easily take a hit and hold... and continuously puts stress into the forum for not being approachable like normal members. I tried to get along with her by being passive unless she mentioned me... but that didn't work very well.

Good, i like it that way (that I can speak out against staff decisions) But I do not like that I can be banned for taking an outright stand against their decisions.

You can't. Read the new rule again. There is nothing in there about that; your assertion amounts to nothing more than a strawman.

Actually I can. Observe: you just did it. If a rule is made that bans murder, and someone takes a stand against the rule... what do you think that means? It means they don't think murder should be banned. Ergo: why should they follow this new rule of yours save out of fear of your reaction? I didn't fear your reaction much before, and I don't fear it now.

That you were unwilling to discuss them with me does not make my points into straw men

I insult all the more because my right to insult here is being pirated away, and frankly I don't want any single person in the forum to have to suffer any warnings or the like over minor offenses like I did in the Godhead thread (im still pissed you read my PM btw, maybe saying "sorry" could help you a lot). I disagree with the rules presented, and am making absolutely certain that the staff nows what its doing (And perhaps more importantly... that the community knows what the staff is doing).

People don't change laws by breaking them. They change laws by starting a dialog with the lawmakers. You've just thrown insults around; if you thought we'd respect your opinions and listen to them more the more insults they had in them, you are sorely mistaken. The reverse is true. For each insult you put into your reply, we will warn you for breaking the rules. If you can't discuss this issue in a civil manner, we will have no choice but to ban you.

As I said above, we have nothing to say sorry over. When you signed up, you agreed that all information you posted here would be available for the staff to use in the enforcement of the rules. That includes any PMs you might send.

Actually, people do change laws by breaking them. While they may not be the nicest of examples... one can clearly see rules changed by being broken in every single successful revolution this world has ever seen. Martyrs, terrorists, and even peaceful people like farmers have been known to change rules by breaking them. Often it is the very breaking of a rule that shows how stupid the rule is.

I've actually done quite a bit more than throw insults around... that my insults are all you read is only your own shortsightedness and unwillingness to understand me. I was hardly going for respect with my insults: I was going for how I felt... and I think I illustrated but a portion of it (and I held back most of my anger).

Warning me for breaking the rules no longer has an effect on me when it comes from you. You've broken all my concern for your rules by banning me... just when I thought perhaps you were going to talk things over with me and work it all out (responding to me did wonders for my anger). But you did not. You banned me... then you engaged in the most incredible of hypocrisies: you insulted me. Isn't that why I was banned? Except whereas I insulted you knowing full well you could respond... you insulted me after I was banned, and could not respond... attacking my arguments without being able to hear my response. What next... kicking babies because they can't fight back?

Also... I don't give a damn what I signed up to allow. Insurance companies all the time prey upon people with such statements... and to see you involke that argument dresses you as both a pervert and uncaring. Private messages have the expectation of being private... and people use them because they are more convenient than emails. Nobody thought you were going to pop into their mailbox without telling them and read what they wrote. Now several people do know that you will do such things, and the people that care don't want to have anything to do with a forum that such a person controls. Hint... I'm one of the people that care.

I have every intention of insulting whenever I want. I disagree with having no negative reputations. I normally do not want to insult at all, but these recent changes are unleashing lots and lots of tension, and you need to be aware of it, and of lots of the things that causing it. Work on the roots of the problem... stop ripping and tearing at their effect (because then you still have what caused the problem).

If you continue to use insults, you will be banned. I can't make it any clearer than that.

As I cannot make it any clearer that I do not care what you do to me any longer. You've wronged me to the point I no longer give a fuck. And before I was banned, I was going to be a lot more polite with you. No more... I'm done with this forum.

I am hardly power mad, Tiberius. A more useless staff member there couldn't be (iow, all i would do really is ban the odd mabus or move a thread or two). I don't threaten people with warnings, bannings, and what have you... and I wouldn't if I had the power to back it up. On the other hand, the staff seems very trigger happy of late... closing threads, deleting posts, giving warnings, threatening with bannings. Come on... you don't need that with me.

It was actually the "debate my arguments" part of the quote I was directing at you. You haven't done that; you've just thrown insults around.

If you could actually read beyond insults, you would know that I have debated your arguments. Possibly my simplest post of debated arguments http://atheistforums.org/thread-4403.html is also one which you never responded to. You never engaged me on a member-member ground, not once in this discussion. Always you went to your big guns (warnings, banning, post moderation). You never needed that with me... and now it seems you've no answer to me (trying to work with me on what is upsetting me).

I cared Tiberius, and I gave those last two months all the patience I could. I have been warned and threatened my whole life... I came to this forum, liked a number of the people, and truly enjoyed myself. I'm proud of the forum from that time... where you asked me not to mention a certain thing... where you asked me not to do another... where you actually communicated with me on occasion. This new thing though... it isn't the same. This is now a place that has become not unlike how authorities in my life react: overreacting, jumping to their 'big guns' first, unwillingness to identify and work on the problem, too much concern that their rules be followed to the letter in every case, little respect for loyalty and companionship.

It seems not like I would be returning to the forum (it's gone)... I would be joining this one.

I'm quite glad to see that you actually are debating me (at least that's what I'll assume that "last post, Tiberius, 2:43" means ) I am flinging in personal attacks where I feel they are warranted. *I need most of those to even speak up honestly, though the posts would of course likely be good enough without them

No personal attack is warranted in this. If you continue to do it, you will be banned.

Personal attacks are warranted on a side issue. I am fully of the opinion that Eilonnwy has been slow poison on the forum since she became a supermod... and all the more so as an admin. As a member, she would be approachable. As an admin, she is impossible to confront.

I don't remember which personal attacks all I used, but I know that there was a reason for each and every one. And if you would like, I could add back in all the ones I removed.

Thank you for actually responding to my posts ^_^ Now I'm not angry at the one of the unresponsive staff But I still am waiting on those apologies. Seriously, don't read peoples PMs while at the same time claiming you can't.

I have never claimed we can't read PMs. I will not apologize for a mistake that you made, and for which you were rightly punished.

[/quote]

Eilonnwy, on the other hand, has. And you, when I've asked you no less than four times wether they can, have always avoided the question until now. Further, Leo-RCC avoided the question when I asked him once (or perhaps twice... one of those I grant to you might have been him).

If you will not apologize for your actions to me, and are not interested in hearing me out, we truly are done. If you want to talk about it with my any further, come to <snip> the measure of a person is what they do with power... I don't measure you and the rest of the staff here (I can say that safely now that Darwinian is no longer among it) highly at all... perhaps you would see how I measure?

That really is my last post though... I no longer trust the staff here, and would not be surprised if my post gets deleted or otherwise moderated. I won't be responding for Rabbit (who you've wronged), or Syna (similarly). While I bear a grudge against the staff from here, I'll not be having it interfere with how I do things over at the above noted forum. You are all welcome (by me at any rate) should you come... I'll even have a thread with this open and ready for you should you stop by.

[Tiberius]

Ad hominem attacks are a logical fallacy... to allow people to make every fallacy except one is pathetic. If it is so childish, why is it I never see children do it... only adults and teenagers?

Exactly what kind of children have you been around?!? I'd also like to point out that we aren't banning just ad hominems; we are banning any type of insult. This has nothing to do with fallacies; it has everything to do with common sense and civility.

Oh... so because it is not against the rules, I don't deserve an apology? Thanks... I'll keep that in mind the first time I see rape is not against the rules. A thing being against the rules doesn't make it wrong (gay marriage anyone?)... just as a thing being allowed doesn't mean it is right. Ruleless societies don't last long because people make rules off of what they feel is right and wrong.

That wasn't my point and you know it. The staff didn't do anything wrong, and we didn't do anything against the rules. The two happen to overlap in this case. Indeed, it was you who did wrong, by concealing and encouraging a troll so he could cause more havoc.

I feel reading someone's PMs without asking them (If you'd have just asked, I would be a lot less angry with you) is wrong.

Tough. If you felt that way, you shouldn't have signed up. Our registration agreement clearly states that the staff can read PMs, and it has been like that since day 1. You signed up to the forums. You agreed to the staff being able to read PMs. You have no basis to even make a complaint about this. Maybe you'll read the rules next time.

I feel holding too dearly to one's rules is wrong. I feel caring more about rules than about loyalty, companionship, and friends is wrong. I think it's wrong to not be open to people's honest opinions... and I know it's wrong to allow others to insult me while I am banned for insulting them. I was clear with you... very honest with you... very upset with you. You didn't ask me what I meant... you didn't care that I was being honest of my opinion... and you didn't try to work with me about it. Yes, I feel I deserve an apology. No, I do not think one is forthcoming.

No, you are right, I didn't care that you were being honest in your opinion. Your opinion was presented in a vile and disgusting manner. I did try to work with you about it. I sent you two PMs warning you that if you continued to insult people, you would be banned. What did I get in return? A PM saying "I won't follow the rules because they aren't my rules". The IRC logs also reveal that you were trying to get yourself banned all along, and you went to great lengths to achieve this...and you have the gall to say I wasn't trying to work with you???

I don't have to feel threatened by the staff while I'm not breaking rules? Then why did I feel threatened by one of them since I signed up, Tiberius? Eilonnwy is not a good person to have in possession of power as I see it. The reality is that she is an emotional bomb that can't easily take a hit and hold... and continuously puts stress into the forum for not being approachable like normal members. I tried to get along with her by being passive unless she mentioned me... but that didn't work very well.

I don't care about your personal problems with Eilonnwy. If you'd wanted to sort them out, you should have talked to her directly about the problems, rather than insult her numerous times. I happen to think Eilonnwy is a great staff member. We all have our problems, and I know from experience that Eilonnwy is one of the best people around when it comes to working on hers. You, on the other hand, don't like to hear that you are wrong.

Actually I can. Observe: you just did it. If a rule is made that bans murder, and someone takes a stand against the rule... what do you think that means? It means they don't think murder should be banned. Ergo: why should they follow this new rule of yours save out of fear of your reaction? I didn't fear your reaction much before, and I don't fear it now.

You make no sense. We did not ban you for dissenting to a staff ruling. We banned you because you broke the rule repeatedly. Numerous people were dissenting from our ruling, but none of them actually broke the rule. They dissented politely, following the new rule change, whilst at the same time arguing against it.

That you were unwilling to discuss them with me does not make my points into straw men

No, but you making a strawman out of what happened does. You weren't banned for dissenting against the ruling; plain and simple. You were banned for breaking the rule repeatedly. I suggest you have a look back through this thread; especially at Paul the Human's posts. He dissented against the ruling, like yourself. We didn't ban him though, because he did it politely; he actually wanted to discuss it. You just wanted to cause havoc and get banned.

Actually, people do change laws by breaking them. While they may not be the nicest of examples... one can clearly see rules changed by being broken in every single successful revolution this world has ever seen. Martyrs, terrorists, and even peaceful people like farmers have been known to change rules by breaking them. Often it is the very breaking of a rule that shows how stupid the rule is.

...and tell me, where do most revolutions end up? Oh yes, ruined, with the lives of millions sacrificed for nothing. This is probably why most people realise that revolutions aren't a good way to go, and are generally the last ditch effort for change. You didn't even given us a first effort. You jumped straight into a revolution, which thankfully failed.

I've actually done quite a bit more than throw insults around... that my insults are all you read is only your own shortsightedness and unwillingness to understand me. I was hardly going for respect with my insults: I was going for how I felt... and I think I illustrated but a portion of it (and I held back most of my anger).

You'll find that people will respect you more, and your arguments, if you don't attach a load of emotional baggage to them. People respect politeness; people do not respect a foul attitude. When was the last time you were convinced of something because someone shouted and insulted you? If your answer is anything but "never", perhaps you should rethink your strategy on trying to convince people.

Warning me for breaking the rules no longer has an effect on me when it comes from you. You've broken all my concern for your rules by banning me... just when I thought perhaps you were going to talk things over with me and work it all out (responding to me did wonders for my anger). But you did not. You banned me... then you engaged in the most incredible of hypocrisies: you insulted me. Isn't that why I was banned? Except whereas I insulted you knowing full well you could respond... you insulted me after I was banned, and could not respond... attacking my arguments without being able to hear my response. What next... kicking babies because they can't fight back?

Exactly where did I insult you? Point it out to me and I'll issue an apology, but I have no recollection of such an event occurring.

As for you not being able to respond; I've had you on MSN for the past year. You had ample time to get in contact, and you were not banned from the IRC. You chose not to. That isn't my problem.

Also... I don't give a damn what I signed up to allow. Insurance companies all the time prey upon people with such statements... and to see you involke that argument dresses you as both a pervert and uncaring. Private messages have the expectation of being private... and people use them because they are more convenient than emails. Nobody thought you were going to pop into their mailbox without telling them and read what they wrote. Now several people do know that you will do such things, and the people that care don't want to have anything to do with a forum that such a person controls. Hint... I'm one of the people that care.

Perhaps the next time you get insurance, you should read through what you are signing up to. We aren't going to take the blame for something you clicked "I agree" to. As far as we are concerned, anyone who signs up to this place does so on the understanding that anything they post to the server (including PMs) are searchable by the staff. We do this so that people can't send illegal material through our server, since this would involve our server being taken down. I don't think anyone here wants that, especially since some of them helped pay for it.

Oh, and just so you know, that new forum that you are a member of? It uses the same forum system as this one. The admin there can read PMs just as well as we can. In fact, just so everyone knows, this is a feature of practically every forum that supports PMs. I don't know of any that use encryption on PMs, so all PMs are able to be read by the people who own the server.

As I cannot make it any clearer that I do not care what you do to me any longer. You've wronged me to the point I no longer give a fuck. And before I was banned, I was going to be a lot more polite with you. No more... I'm done with this forum.

If you really were going to be more polite, you should have done it when I sent my first warning, or the second. Instead, you laugh at my threats in the IRC channel, and then boast at how you are going to insult us through the reputation system. So excuse me if I don't take your word for it.

If you could actually read beyond insults, you would know that I have debated your arguments. Possibly my simplest post of debated arguments http://atheistforums.org/thread-4403.html is also one which you never responded to. You never engaged me on a member-member ground, not once in this discussion. Always you went to your big guns (warnings, banning, post moderation). You never needed that with me... and now it seems you've no answer to me (trying to work with me on what is upsetting me).

So first you complain that I said stuff about you when you were banned so you couldn't defend it, and now you complain that I didn't debate your points when you were banned? I find that hypocritical.

I debated you in the PM system whilst you systematically spread insults about myself and Eilonnwy, laughing in the IRC chat as you did it. You were banned because both Eilonnwy and I had reached the end of our patience with you. We gave you ample warning to stop, and you didn't. In fact, you said flat out that you would continue to break the rules. After that, we had no choice but to ban you.

Personal attacks are warranted on a side issue. I am fully of the opinion that Eilonnwy has been slow poison on the forum since she became a supermod... and all the more so as an admin. As a member, she would be approachable. As an admin, she is impossible to confront.

Eilonnwy is approachable. If you don't bother to approach her about things you think she is doing wrong, then you don't have any right to complain. This isn't about Eilonnwy; this is about you and a problem that you decided not to confront anyone about. When you eventually decided to come out of your shell, you did so all guns blazing, and you suffered for it.

I don't remember which personal attacks all I used, but I know that there was a reason for each and every one. And if you would like, I could add back in all the ones I removed.

I'm sure most personal attacks have some reason behind them. This doesn't stop us from enforcing the ban when they are used, and it doesn't make them any less against the rules.

Eilonnwy, on the other hand, has. And you, when I've asked you no less than four times wether they can, have always avoided the question until now. Further, Leo-RCC avoided the question when I asked him once (or perhaps twice... one of those I grant to you might have been him).

Eilonnwy at the time did not realise we could read PMs. I don't recall you ever asking me though. Even so, me not answering says absolutely nothing.

If you will not apologize for your actions to me, and are not interested in hearing me out, we truly are done.

I'm very interested in hearing you out. I'm not at all interested in apologizing for something we have no need to apologize for.

I won't be responding for Rabbit (who you've wronged), or Syna (similarly).

I haven't wronged Rabbit or Syn in any way. They left the forums of their own accord. They were not warned, nor were they threatened. You making up lies as some last act of revenge doesn't impress me Sae...not one bit.

[Autumnlicious]

I won't be responding for Rabbit (who you've wronged), or Syna (similarly).

I haven't wronged Rabbit or Syn in any way. They left the forums of their own accord. They were not warned, nor were they threatened. You making up lies as some last act of revenge doesn't impress me Sae...not one bit.

One does not simply leave the forums over nothing. There is always a reason.

And I have my reasons. Whether or not I feel wronged won't matter here, or anywhere else. In the end run, nothing matters.

[Rhizomorph13]

Nothing really matters?
Anyone can see...

[Tiberius]

I won't be responding for Rabbit (who you've wronged), or Syna (similarly).

I haven't wronged Rabbit or Syn in any way. They left the forums of their own accord. They were not warned, nor were they threatened. You making up lies as some last act of revenge doesn't impress me Sae...not one bit.

One does not simply leave the forums over nothing. There is always a reason.

And I have my reasons. Whether or not I feel wronged won't matter here, or anywhere else. In the end run, nothing matters.

I never said there wasn't a reason did I? No, I didn't.

I stand by my statement, and against Saerules' lies. I did nothing to "wrong" either of you. You both left of your own accord.