The "Cultural Context" Excuse

[LadyForCamus]

So, I've been debating a Christian on another site (not an atheist site, but the topic of religion come up and I just couldn't help myself [emoji6]) regarding those verses in Deuteronomy that detail stoning your rebellious child to death.

I don't understand the apologist rebuttal to the above mentioned verses (and so many others like it in the OT): 'you have to understand the Hebrew culture back then. If you understand their culture, you'll see it's not really as bad as it sounds.'

Let's consider a couple definitions of "culture":

1. The beliefs, customs, arts, etc., of a particular society, group, place, or time.

2. A particular society that has its own beliefs, ways of life, art, etc

It's textually pretty straight forward that the beliefs and customs of the Jews' culture were quite literally commanded upon them through a series of direct orders from God himself. All laws governing right from wrong, even the most mundane details of day-to-day living (like which animals were clean to eat, and which types of garments were okay to wear) were handed down to the Jews DIRECTLY from God, through Moses. God goes so far as to impose a punishment of death onto those who dare disobey His theocratic governing rules. 'You'd better worship me, and only me, or I will kill you. You better follow these rules, or I will kill you. You'd better live this particular way, and do these particular things, or I will kill you.'

He could have sent his special folks forward into the world to live amongst others with the most perfectly empathetic and humanistic ideals. He could have commanded Mosaic laws such as:

1. Don't murder other people for their land and property

2. Woman are autonomous humans and shall be treated as such

3. Don't ever enslave another human being

3. Under no circumstances is a child is to be put to death as criminal punishment

So, we are going to point the finger at the Israelites' marginally civilized, and aggressive Patriarchal culture as the reason for needing such harsh deterrents in place like stoning your kids to death, then we MUST also point the finger at a marginally civilized and aggressive God for cultivating his people's culture that way in the first place!

Christians are left with two explanations that I can see: either Jewish culture was barbaric because Yahweh was barbaric (and not omnibenevolent) or Yahweh wasn't powerful enough to set forth a more civilized group of people (and not omnipotent).

[emoji848]

(Oh, and of course, obvious option number three that no Christian will ever select: the bible is not actually god's word. [emoji6])

[Whateverist]

Oh sure, given that culture, spare the stone and spoil the child makes sooo much sense. (But I haven't finished your treatise so back to it.)

[abaris]

There's a difference between accepting that culture was very different at a different time in different regions and taking an advisory of the time to be the word of god.

The former is simple acceptance, since it is history and has to be viewed that way. The latter is bullshittery and going through mental acrobatics to justify a supposedly perfect being changing it's views over time.

[Whateverist]

Christians are left with two explanations that I can see:  either Jewish culture was barbaric because Yahweh was barbaric (and not omnibenevolent) or Yahweh wasn't powerful enough to set forth a more civilized group of people (and not omnipotent).  


(Oh, and of course, obvious option number three that no Christian will ever select:  the bible is not actually god's word.)

Choice number three is the only sensible choice but I think you're trying hard to meet your xtian debater half way.  Otherwise why frame the question in terms of God's intentionality or capacity?  Perhaps we need a choice #4 for the atheists: there is no god, we are simply moving from a state of gross barbarity to one that is much more subtle.

[LadyForCamus]

Christians are left with two explanations that I can see:  either Jewish culture was barbaric because Yahweh was barbaric (and not omnibenevolent) or Yahweh wasn't powerful enough to set forth a more civilized group of people (and not omnipotent).  


(Oh, and of course, obvious option number three that no Christian will ever select:  the bible is not actually god's word.)

Choice number three is the only sensible choice but I think you're trying hard to meet your xtian debater half way.  Otherwise why frame the question in terms of God's intentionality or capacity?  Perhaps we need a choice #4 for the atheists: there is no god, we are simply moving from a state of gross barbarity to one that is much more subtle.

Yes, I suppose I'm trying to play nice with the Christian ball in their very own court. Something I'm sure I'll regret at some point. [emoji12]

[Esquilax]

Interestingly, those christians most likely to retreat behind cultural context to excuse the old testament are also more than likely willing to propose that god is a moral law giver handing down objectively true moral edicts that apply to all people at all times regardless of personal opinion.

So, I mean, that'd give me pause for thought.

[The Grand Nudger]

If their god requires cultural context...and that cultural context is irrelevant to -us-, then so is the god who depends upon it.

[Minimalist]

If you want a 'cultural context' for killing people over trivial shit just look at Saudi Arabia, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, Syria, Pakistan and Bangladesh.  What oh what might the common cultural context be?


Religion is an excuse for primitive twats to be primitive.

[LadyForCamus]

Interestingly, those christians most likely to retreat behind cultural context to excuse the old testament are also more than likely willing to propose that god is a moral law giver handing down objectively true moral edicts that apply to all people at all times regardless of personal opinion.

So, I mean, that'd give me pause for thought.

Exactly! I mean, from an all-loving god's perspective, wouldn't it make more sense for His people to be striving for the above examples of social mores rather than worrying about not building a fire on the Sabbath, or how to prepare burnt animals for sacrifice?

Isn't the bible supposed to be The Lord's Word; his inerrant instructions on how to live correctly? The most perfect, yet unattainable moral standard? If yes, why would the Jews be living in a patriarchy in first place? Why should they have ever NEEDED such a cruel and torturous legal punishment as stoning a 13 year old to death, regardless of whether or not it was only in place as a deterrent?

God could have just said: "a patriarchal society that subjugates women is morally wrong...don't fucking do that."

How hard is that?!

[The Grand Nudger]

When christians say that, they just mean that they think god loves -them-. Sure, sure...god could love you too...provided that you become one of -them-. After all, the universe was created for -them-, and a jew was strung up for -them-.

Me, me, me, me me...all day with those fuckers.

That might be why referencing the suffering of others, or..really anything about others (beliefs, opinions, criticisms) doesn't hit home...with -them-.