The "Cultural Context" Excuse

[Huggy Bear]

I'm not in the mood for another abortion debate, sorry.

But y'all will discuss Noah Ark ad nauseam.

The point wasn't about abortion the point was about hypocrisy.

you stated.

And this analogy points up the flaw in the argument that God "has the right" to do whatever he wants, because no parent has cart blanche to do what they want to their children regardless of age.   Where did he acquire this right?  How are you defining a 'right'?

You clearly stated that "no parent has carte blanche to do what they want to their children REGARDLESS of AGE", yet you clearly don't take that position when it comes to abortion.

What Christians are saying is that God is sovereign, he has supreme authority over his creation. If you are pro-choice then you are essentially saying that a woman has sovereignty over her body and has the right to choose between the life and death of her unborn child (HER creation, in part) What gives her that right? Why is it wrong for God in one case and right for the woman in the other?

See the contradiction?

---

God committed mass genocide, save for one family.  What more evidence does anyone need?!

Now you consider biblical scripture evidence? Interesting...

Will you consider it as evidence going forward?

[Simon Moon]

Just so were clear, are you saying that an unborn has no right to live? By what authority does one make this determination?

Just to be clear, your god is responsible for more abortions than humans, by far.

Over 50% of all fertilized eggs never make it. They don't implant into the uterus, or they are naturally aborted.

In the US alone, there are 4 million births a year out of about 8 million conceptions. There are about 1.3 million induced abortions a year, that leaves 2.7 million 'god' induced abortions a year. Figuring that prenatal care is pretty good and infant mortality is fairly low in the US, who knows how many 'god' induced abortions occurring in the rest of the world, where this isn't the case.

Is your god responsible for 2.7 million abortions a year in the US? If not, does that mean that some things happen in the universe that is not part of your god's plan?

[Huggy Bear]

Just so were clear, are you saying that an unborn has no right to live? By what authority does one make this determination?

Just to be clear, your god is responsible for more abortions than humans, by far.

Over 50% of all fertilized eggs never make it. They don't implant into the uterus, or they are naturally aborted.

In the US alone, there are 4 million births a year out of about 8 million conceptions. There are about 1.3 million induced abortions a year, that leaves 2.7 million 'god' induced abortions a year. Figuring that prenatal care is pretty good and infant mortality is fairly low in the US, who knows how many 'god' induced abortions occurring in the rest of the world, where this isn't the case.

Is your god responsible for 2.7 million abortions a year in the US? If not, does that mean that some things happen in the universe that is not part of your god's plan?

Yet you dodged the question.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

I believe someone needs to look up the term 'predestination'. If you bothered to read the Bible you'd see that there is a scripture that credits Levi with paying tithes while he was till in the loins of Abraham, who was his Great-grandfather.

Hebrews 7:10
9 And so to speak, Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham.
10 For when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the loin of his ancestor.

So there is no randomness on who and who isn't born, it is already predetermined (as shown in the above scripture that God KNEW Levi while he was still in the loins of Abraham), and God has the authority to make that "pre-determination" since he knows the end from the beginning.

[Simon Moon]

Just to be clear, your god is responsible for more abortions than humans, by far.

Over 50% of all fertilized eggs never make it. They don't implant into the uterus, or they are naturally aborted.

In the US alone, there are 4 million births a year out of about 8 million conceptions. There are about 1.3 million induced abortions a year, that leaves 2.7 million 'god' induced abortions a year. Figuring that prenatal care is pretty good and infant mortality is fairly low in the US, who knows how many 'god' induced abortions occurring in the rest of the world, where this isn't the case.

Is your god responsible for 2.7 million abortions a year in the US? If not, does that mean that some things happen in the universe that is not part of your god's plan?

Yet you dodged the question.

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

I believe someone needs to look up the term 'predestination'. If you bothered to read the Bible you'd see that there is a scripture that credits Levi with paying tithes while he was till in the loins of Abraham, who was his Great-grandfather.

Hebrews 7:10
9 And so to speak, Levi, who collects the tenth, paid the tenth through Abraham.
10 For when Melchizedek met Abraham, Levi was still in the loin of his ancestor.

So there is no randomness on who and who isn't born, it is already predetermined (as shown in the above scripture that God KNEW Levi while he was still in the loins of Abraham), and God has the authority to make that "pre-determination" since he knows the end from the beginning.

Then why wouldn't the human induced abortions also part of predestination?

[LadyForCamus]

Yet you dodged the question.


I believe someone needs to look up the term 'predestination'. If you bothered to read the Bible you'd see that there is a scripture that credits Levi with paying tithes while he was till in the loins of Abraham, who was his Great-grandfather.

So there is no randomness on who and who isn't born, it is already predetermined (as shown in the above scripture that God KNEW Levi while he was still in the loins of Abraham), and God has the authority to make that "pre-determination" since he knows the end from the beginning.

Then why wouldn't the human induced abortions also part of predestination?

[LadyForCamus]

I'm not in the mood for another abortion debate, sorry.

But y'all will discuss Noah Ark ad nauseam.

The point wasn't about abortion the point was about hypocrisy.

you stated.

And this analogy points up the flaw in the argument that God "has the right" to do whatever he wants, because no parent has cart blanche to do what they want to their children regardless of age.   Where did he acquire this right?  How are you defining a 'right'?

You clearly stated that "no parent has carte blanche to do what they want to their children REGARDLESS of AGE", yet you clearly don't take that position when it comes to abortion.

What Christians are saying is that God is sovereign, he has supreme authority over his creation. If you are pro-choice then you are essentially saying that a woman has sovereignty over her body and has the right to choose between the life and death of her unborn child (HER creation, in part) What gives her that right? Why is it wrong for God in one case and right for the woman in the other?

See the contradiction?

---

God committed mass genocide, save for one family.  What more evidence does anyone need?!

Now you consider biblical scripture evidence? Interesting...

Will you consider it as evidence going forward?

I consider it evidence of the character of the character. Not evidence of the existence of the character himself.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Apparently, Huggy, you've opted to ignore the point again.

I'm shocked. SHOCKED.

Tell us again why you don't mind worshipping a mass-murderer, while at the same time decrying what you assert as a "murder" to be immoral.

I'll wait ... you seem to be in "defensive dithering" mode, but that's okay, I'm used to it coming from you.

Uh, I haven't ignored anything, murder is defined as "the UNLAWFUL PREMEDITATED killing of a human being". Last time I looked capital punishment was not murder.


Context is everything...

Every single time I prove an atheists position on scripture wrong by using the very same scripture; they always revert back to, "we don't believe in God", well guess what? I'm not the one that started the thread. There for if you don't believe in God, then you obviously don't believe God committed any "mass murders".

Now if you want to provide any specific "evidence" where YOU believe God committed mass murder then let's see it; and In return I'll show you according to scripture why it's not "mass murder"... Deal?

---

A fetus is not legally a person nor is it biologically as developed as a child or even a newborn baby.

I don't care if it's commonly referred to as an "unborn child" it isn't an unborn child, it's not a child at all, it's not even a fully developed baby yet, it's a fetus.

If we are talking legality, then legally a corporation is considered a person... what's your point?

I gave you the medical definition, which defined a fetus as "unborn offspring", human offspring ARE children, but I see you opt to ignore medical definitions when it's convenient.

Just so were clear, are you saying that an unborn has no right to live? By what authority does one make this determination?

Capital punishment, when carried out unjustly, is murder.

Of course, if you're going to defend your god's mass murders with the idea that he made the law, then you're simply asserting subjective morality.

You're still left with choosing between worshipping an evil god, or defending subjective morality.

Have at it!

ETA: I don't actually believe in gods, but am treating the bible as true for the sake of this conversation. And ... I didn't start this thread.

[Simon Moon]

Then why wouldn't the human induced abortions also part of predestination?

I meant to say "pre-determination", to use Huggy's terminology.

But I think autocorrect changed it to "predestination", but I think the point is the same.

[Huggy Bear]

Yet you dodged the question.


I believe someone needs to look up the term 'predestination'. If you bothered to read the Bible you'd see that there is a scripture that credits Levi with paying tithes while he was till in the loins of Abraham, who was his Great-grandfather.

So there is no randomness on who and who isn't born, it is already predetermined (as shown in the above scripture that God KNEW Levi while he was still in the loins of Abraham), and God has the authority to make that "pre-determination" since he knows the end from the beginning.

Then why wouldn't the human induced abortions also part of predestination?

Because humans have the ability to choose, just because God know the choice that one will make doesn't make that choice predetermined.

We come from God and we go back to God. The time and season in which we arrive on the earth and leave it are in the for knowledge of God, it doesn't necessarily make it his will.

[Huggy Bear]

Uh, I haven't ignored anything, murder is defined as "the UNLAWFUL PREMEDITATED killing of a human being". Last time I looked capital punishment was not murder.


Context is everything...

Every single time I prove an atheists position on scripture wrong by using the very same scripture; they always revert back to, "we don't believe in God", well guess what? I'm not the one that started the thread. There for if you don't believe in God, then you obviously don't believe God committed any "mass murders".

Now if you want to provide any specific "evidence" where YOU believe God committed mass murder then let's see it; and In return I'll show you according to scripture why it's not "mass murder"... Deal?

---

If we are talking legality, then legally a corporation is considered a person... what's your point?

I gave you the medical definition, which defined a fetus as "unborn offspring", human offspring ARE children, but I see you opt to ignore medical definitions when it's convenient.

Just so were clear, are you saying that an unborn has no right to live? By what authority does one make this determination?

Capital punishment, when carried out unjustly, is murder.

Of course, if you're going to defend you god's mass murders with the idea that he made the law, then you're simply asserting subjective morality.

You're still left with choosing between worshipping an evil god, or defending subjective morality.

Have at it!

ETA: I don't actually believe in gods, but am treating the bible as true for the sake of this conversation. And ... I didn't start this thread.

I asked for a specific example of God being unjust, you have yet to provide it.