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(August 16, 2010 at 9:11 am)Captain Scarlet Wrote: @godschild. I know but you miss my point. Why god did them is irrelevant, the fact he can do it and chooses not to do it now is devasting for his supposed attribute of omnibenevolance. It wouldn't be an issue if you said well apart from not being perfect and being all loving he is really, really,nearly, nearly perfect. But you don't you claim perfection and I'm calling that out.
Let's get this out of the way there is no nearly He is perfect. God did not make these situations happen to do so He would have had to create sin and He did not do that. Sin came into existence through Satan's disobedience and came into the creation by mans disobedience. Thus suffering was the result. You keep saying that God kills babies yet you say nothing about the millions of babies that are aborted every year. If God were the total controlling being you say He should be then this would not happen and the freedom of choice would be gone. So do you want to do away with a womans right to choose I do not see God doing that. By your logic God should stop this and do away with freedom of choice.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
August 17, 2010 at 3:59 am (This post was last modified: August 17, 2010 at 4:02 am by The Omnissiunt One.)
(August 16, 2010 at 6:43 pm)tackattack Wrote: 1-I addressed accountability for suffering, the why of suffering was addressed in my rebuttal to point 4.
4- I didn't say all suffering leads to human advancement. I said suffering is a primary part of learning and evolving. Lots of suffering is needless, hence the term "needless suffering". They can be traced causally back to any number of reasons, most however are man-made in origins, hence my stance that mankind does far worse in the name of God than God does through man.
So why does God allow needless suffering, when he could presumably bring about human advancement without it? Also, a large part of suffering is not man-made. Droughts, floods, volcanoes, tsunamis, predators in nature... need I go on? Even humankind's own nature, our capacity for violence and war and sadism, is not our fault. God must account for this, too.
(August 17, 2010 at 12:31 am)Godschild Wrote: Let's get this out of the way there is no nearly He is perfect. God did not make these situations happen to do so He would have had to create sin and He did not do that. Sin came into existence through Satan's disobedience and came into the creation by mans disobedience. Thus suffering was the result. You keep saying that God kills babies yet you say nothing about the millions of babies that are aborted every year. If God were the total controlling being you say He should be then this would not happen and the freedom of choice would be gone. So do you want to do away with a womans right to choose I do not see God doing that. By your logic God should stop this and do away with freedom of choice.
Why did God create Satan, knowing he would disobey? Why does God then punish us for the sin which he presumably allowed? What's so good about freedom of choice, for that matter, and why couldn't God have given us freedom of choice, but eliminated all natural evil?
Your god seems more and more ethically dubious by the day.
'We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.' H.L. Mencken
'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.
'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain
'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
(August 14, 2010 at 2:28 am)Minimalist Wrote: There was no garden of eden, no god, no adam, and no eve....therefore they didn't know shit.
These were stories invented to force obedience from primitive men.
Amazing that they still work in some cases.
"There is no absurdity so palpable but that it may be firmly planted in the human head if you only begin to inculcate it before the age of five, by constantly repeating it with an air of great solemnity." - Arthur Schopenhauer
“Society is not a disease, it is a disaster. What a stupid miracle that one can live in it.” ~ E.M. Cioran
August 17, 2010 at 11:13 am (This post was last modified: August 17, 2010 at 11:19 am by Captain Scarlet.)
Quote:Let's get this out of the way there is no nearly He is perfect. God did not make these situations happen to do so He would have had to create sin and He did not do that. Sin came into existence through Satan's disobedience and came into the creation by mans disobedience. Thus suffering was the result. You keep saying that God kills babies yet you say nothing about the millions of babies that are aborted every year. If God were the total controlling being you say He should be then this would not happen and the freedom of choice would be gone. So do you want to do away with a womans right to choose I do not see God doing that. By your logic God should stop this and do away with freedom of choice.
That was a little emotional. I not sure what that has to do with life v choice argument. I remember saying that god allows suffering which includes the death of unborn children once. But if you want to walk down that path you will find a big elephant trap called miscarriages. This making god THE biggest aborter of unborn children. As to your point it is irrelevant again. It is possible for god to materialise a world without suffering, with free will where people come to beleive in him. He has done it before and can do so now. But he doesn't. Therefore he is either not all good ( but can be all evil) or he does not exist. You need to challenge the premises if you are to blunt this argument, it is I'm afraid logically valid and is deductive not inductive reasoning.
(August 17, 2010 at 12:31 am)Godschild Wrote: Let's get this out of the way there is no nearly He is perfect. God did not make these situations happen to do so He would have had to create sin and He did not do that. Sin came into existence through Satan's disobedience and came into the creation by mans disobedience. Thus suffering was the result. You keep saying that God kills babies yet you say nothing about the millions of babies that are aborted every year. If God were the total controlling being you say He should be then this would not happen and the freedom of choice would be gone. So do you want to do away with a womans right to choose I do not see God doing that. By your logic God should stop this and do away with freedom of choice.
Omnissiunt One Wrote:Why did God create Satan, knowing he would disobey? Why does God then punish us for the sin which he presumably allowed? What's so good about freedom of choice, for that matter, and why couldn't God have given us freedom of choice, but eliminated all natural evil?
Your god seems more and more ethically dubious by the day.
Well if you do not think freedom of choice is important then you do not hold your freedom in high reguard. God did not create Satan He created Lucifer the most beautiful of all the angels and the most powerful archangel. Lucifer made Satan by his disobedience. God allowed him to do this because He wants all created beings to love Him with out being forced in any way (what kind of love would love be if forced, I say it's no love at all) then He allowed Adam and Eve to make the same choice. Freewill is one of the greatest gifts given to us by God, if He had not then we would be no more than puppets and I for one believe that to be a horrible existence. The reason God did not eliminate evil is so we could see the love He has for mankind the love He gives us in having freedom of choice. By the way if God had eliminated evil then where is there a choice.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(August 17, 2010 at 3:59 am)The Omnissiunt One Wrote:
(August 16, 2010 at 6:43 pm)tackattack Wrote: 1-I addressed accountability for suffering, the why of suffering was addressed in my rebuttal to point 4.
4- I didn't say all suffering leads to human advancement. I said suffering is a primary part of learning and evolving. Lots of suffering is needless, hence the term "needless suffering". They can be traced causally back to any number of reasons, most however are man-made in origins, hence my stance that mankind does far worse in the name of God than God does through man.
So why does God allow needless suffering, when he could presumably bring about human advancement without it? Also, a large part of suffering is not man-made. Droughts, floods, volcanoes, tsunamis, predators in nature... need I go on? Even humankind's own nature, our capacity for violence and war and sadism, is not our fault. God must account for this, too.
I thought I addressed this but I'll rephrase.
God created everything, therefore he created suffering. It's productivity, usefullness, or causes are given to us in the form of choice. I'll illustrate. God make a bi blak rock. He created humans who will have to move that rock to create a path. What the human's do with the rock (how it's disposed, moved, etc) is up to us. They put it aside and by the rock's round nature it rolls around and kill somone. Was that God's fault for creating the rock, putting it there in the first place, or is it the human's fault for not watching what the hell he was doing? Suffering is a tool that's necessary for evolution and thiving as a species. It's worth (needless or productive) is based on our involvement in it. Did you sponsor 5 families in your home so the don't have to live in a village on the side of a volcano? Did you help build levees that protected a village from flooding? Have you done research to help prevent infant death rates from climbing? Our capacity for violence, war and sadism is not our fault? That sounds like schewing accountability and a lack of personal responsibility. I am responsible for my own desires and animalistic instincts and it's my social obligation to use the roductively not destructively.
"There ought to be a term that would designate those who actually follow the teachings of Jesus, since the word 'Christian' has been largely divorced from those teachings, and so polluted by fundamentalists that it has come to connote their polar opposite: intolerance, vindictive hatred, and bigotry." -- Philip Stater, Huffington Post
always working on cleaning my windows- me regarding Johari
Well if you do not think freedom of choice is important then you do not hold your freedom in high reguard. God did not create Satan He created Lucifer the most beautiful of all the angels and the most powerful archangel. Lucifer made Satan by his disobedience. God allowed him to do this because He wants all created beings to love Him with out being forced in any way (what kind of love would love be if forced, I say it's no love at all) then He allowed Adam and Eve to make the same choice. Freewill is one of the greatest gifts given to us by God, if He had not then we would be no more than puppets and I for one believe that to be a horrible existence. The reason God did not eliminate evil is so we could see the love He has for mankind the love He gives us in having freedom of choice. By the way if God had eliminated evil then where is there a choice.
And it gets worse. Don't know where to begin it's so bad. If forced love is no love at all your god does not love us. Did god not command us to worship him else he will punish us and our children. I think most reasonable people would think if an omnipotent being said that, he could probably follow through on it; I would feel compelled/forced to worship, believe or love. It gets no better in the NT when you are tortured forever becuase you didn't believe a bronze age Jewish orthodox preacher was really a god. Haven't generations of people been threatened and bullied and terrified into believing this? As for free will, can you be 'given' free will. If you didn't want free will (and a lot of folks do like choices made for them) then if you are given it, it is given against you free will. again you'd be forced to accept it. It is therefore a self defeating concept.
(August 18, 2010 at 3:28 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote: If forced love is no love at all your god does not love us. Did god not command us to worship him else he will punish us and our children...
After all, in any other context, this would certainly be considered to be an unhealthy, abusive relationship.
“Society is not a disease, it is a disaster. What a stupid miracle that one can live in it.” ~ E.M. Cioran
(August 18, 2010 at 3:28 pm)Captain Scarlet Wrote:
(August 17, 2010 at 10:46 pm)Godschild Wrote:
(August 17, 2010 at 12:31 am)Godschild Wrote:
Well if you do not think freedom of choice is important then you do not hold your freedom in high reguard. God did not create Satan He created Lucifer the most beautiful of all the angels and the most powerful archangel. Lucifer made Satan by his disobedience. God allowed him to do this because He wants all created beings to love Him with out being forced in any way (what kind of love would love be if forced, I say it's no love at all) then He allowed Adam and Eve to make the same choice. Freewill is one of the greatest gifts given to us by God, if He had not then we would be no more than puppets and I for one believe that to be a horrible existence. The reason God did not eliminate evil is so we could see the love He has for mankind the love He gives us in having freedom of choice. By the way if God had eliminated evil then where is there a choice.
And it gets worse. Don't know where to begin it's so bad. If forced love is no love at all your god does not love us. Did god not command us to worship him else he will punish us and our children. I think most reasonable people would think if an omnipotent being said that, he could probably follow through on it; I would feel compelled/forced to worship, believe or love. It gets no better in the NT when you are tortured forever becuase you didn't believe a bronze age Jewish orthodox preacher was really a god. Haven't generations of people been threatened and bullied and terrified into believing this? As for free will, can you be 'given' free will. If you didn't want free will (and a lot of folks do like choices made for them) then if you are given it, it is given against you free will. again you'd be forced to accept it. It is therefore a self defeating concept.
You know for someone who doesn't no much about the scriptures you sure do show it.
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
