Faith and achievement

[The Grand Nudger]

Just as endlessly hammering out scales is good training, particularly for improvisation.  Familiarity, knowing what sounds like what...where it is, and how it fits with the rest.  You don't think much about walking either, I bet. That's familiarity, not faith.

Most study of "the zone" occurs in the context of professional musicians practicing. So there's your way....sadly, it's practice. I suppose that;s to be expected, since "the zone" seems to be, itself, an effect of intense focus..rather than of losing oneself or being un-involved. We forget to take notice of ourselves when we're busy. Personally, I like strenuous physical activity for achieving the zone (but I call them zen moments, gimme a hoe and a rake).

[bennyboy]

Actually, Benny, listening to music is great training, the same way we humans learn speech by listening to others.

Maybe.  But I know a lot of people who have listened to Mozart, and couldn't do what I did.  In fact-- pretty much all of them.

Let me say, I'm not arguing that any of this is beyond my brain-- obviously, if I'd never heard of music at all, I couldn't have had a musical lucid dream.  But it seems to me that the conscious agent is actually a very SMALL part of the brain/mind.  At least in my case, the real heavy-hitter is something to which I appeal, not something which I command.  Now, there are those who can play piano as well as I can walk down the street-- for them, it's different.  But in my case, I'll have more luck doing a seance and saying "Biggie Smalls" in front of a mirror 3 times than I will have really trying to consciously produce a piece of music at that higher level.

The funny thing is that when I'm in the zone, it seems so easy, that I rarely bother to turn on a mic, since I feel I've "broken through" and I'll be able to play like that from then on. This is probably one of my biggest regrets in my life.

[bennyboy]

Just as endlessly hammering out scales is good training, particularly for improvisation.  Familiarity, knowing what sounds like what...where it is, and how it fits with the rest.  You don't think much about walking either, I bet.  That's familiarity, not faith.

Most study of "the zone" occurs in the context of professional musicians practicing.  So there's your way to the zone.....sadly, it's practice.

Oh no doubt.  There's something about an ongoing focus that sometimes arrives at that zone, and practice has a HUGE amount to do with it.  In my opinion, it's something like help-hynosis: you fall asleep from the pure repetition of it all, and enter a kind of trance-like state.  However, I've practiced sometimes 8 hours with intense focus hoping for the zone, and it never comes; it's almost like hoping for it scares it away somehow.

The funny thing is that when I'm IN the zone, everything seems so crystal clear. I can't understand how I could have been so clumsy the previous day, because what I'm doing is no harder than drinking a glass of water. Then the next day, I wake up with 10 thumbs, and it all seems like a distant fantasy again.

[The Grand Nudger]

That's not what's happening at all, though.  You aren't falling asleep of boredom or self hypnotizing (though the trance like state is probably the most common description).  Alot is going on..you're becoming more rather than less mentally active.  It's this increased, focused, activity that effectively swamps your neural structures ability to transmit information - at least this is what appears to be happening.

(try making your practice for more fun..time flies and all - distraction makes focus go away, and if you're trying to hit the zone, rather than the notes...you're distracted)

What I like to do, is con the wife into singing with me while I play something. Totally ups my game.

[bennyboy]

That's not what's happening at all, though.  You aren't falling asleep of boredom or self hypnotizing (though the trance like state is probably the most common description).  Alot is going on..you're becoming more rather than less mentally active.  It's this increased, focused, activity that effectively swamps your neural structures ability to transmit information - at least this is what appears to be happening.

(try making your practice for more fun..time flies and all - distraction makes focus go away, and if you're trying to hit the zone, rather than the notes...you're distracted)

What I like to do, is con the wife into singing with me while I play something.  Totally ups my game.

Who says that in dreaming sleep or in hypnosis (or meditation, which I didn't add), the brain is less active?  That's certainly not my view.  In fact, I'd say a vivid dream is a state of hyperactivity.  For me, the moment when I'm halfway between waking life and sleep is the magic point-- for example, it's the point at which you have a decent chance of entering a lucid dream state, with all the heightened powers that come with it.

As for making practice more fun. . . maybe "boredom" wasn't the right word.  I'm more talking about a state in which you kind of let go of conscious control.  I like practicing, too-- it's kind of a zen thing.  But generally, the goal is to quiet the mind-- no internal dialog, no conscious focus on the motions and positioning of the hands (except when specifically practicing hand positioning), etc.

I can guarantee, however, that getting my wife to sing with me will not improve my chances of getting into the "zone," unless by "zone" you mean state of heightened irritation and deep spiritual torment, both for me and my dogs.

[Excited Penguin]

Benny, I hope this doesn't sound silly, but you get it and you're not afraid to describe it. I appreciate that. I intend to start seeking it out again. If I find it, I'll come back with advice. Good luck.

[bennyboy]

Well, whatever the process is, or whether it should be called "faith" or not, this thread has reminded me that I care a lot about getting in touch with that deeper part of myself. I'm playing piano more, trying to get myself to lucid dream again, and in general taking an interest in my mind again-- instead of just going to work and looking foward to drinking a beer and watching Seinfeld reruns or whatever.

[The Grand Nudger]

Who says that in dreaming sleep or in hypnosis the brain is less active?

Study after study after study.........

That's certainly not my view.  In fact, I'd say a vivid dream is a state of hyperactivity.  For me, the moment when I'm halfway between waking life and sleep is the magic point-- for example, it's the point at which you have a decent chance of entering a lucid dream state, with all the heightened powers that come with it.

wtf are you talking about........lol?

As for making practice more fun. . . maybe "boredom" wasn't the right word.  I'm more talking about a state in which you kind of let go of conscious control.  I like practicing, too-- it's kind of a zen thing.  But generally, the goal is to quiet the mind-- no internal dialog, no conscious focus on the motions and positioning of the hands (except when specifically practicing hand positioning), etc.

Right, what I keep trying to explain to you is that you're not actually letting go of conscious control when you enter that zone.  You're intently focused on the task, intensly -in- control, not "quieting the mind" (precisely the opposite) in any qualitative or meanigful sense...that;s just another linguistic flourish, an idiom.  It feels different because of the constraints this puts on the amount of -other- data that can be transmitted or processed simultaneously, the way you normally -feel-..is part of that "other data".  Like I said, a fascinating subject. As best we can tell, this is related to why time flies for us, why we can zone out (or in..however you prefer), the how and why of this experience. We can only handle x amount of data transmission at any given instant. If one task is prioritized reporting on the others is necessarily diminished.

Which is why I doubt that faithing it to happen (by any definition) has any effect. How is that belief, or qualitatively and meaningfully quieting your mind...supposed to help you flood the system, which is what seems to produce the effect we use all of this colorful language to describe?

I can guarantee, however, that getting my wife to sing with me will not improve my chances of getting into the "zone," unless by "zone" you mean state of heightened irritation and deep spiritual torment, both for me and my dogs.

LOL, brutal.

[bennyboy]

Right, what I keep trying to explain to you is that you're not actually letting go of conscious control when you enter that zone.  You're intently focused on the task, intensly -in- control, not "quieting the mind" (precisely the opposite) in any qualitative or meanigful sense...

I'm not sure how to respond to that. I for sure am quieting the mind, and trying to allow my unconscious/subconscious mind access to the performing apparatus. I'm not thinking deeply, I'm not putting an intense effort into it. In fact, in performance, I often have something like an out-of-body experience. . . I can't feel my hands, or sometimes even see the keyboard-- all I can do is listen to the music coming out and hope it doesn't stop coming. In essence, I don't play the music, I become it.

[The Grand Nudger]

Yes, I understand the experience, I have it with regularity - as do a great many other people with almost any sufficiently engaging task.  Thing is, we've looked into it...how we describe the experience does not comply with observations of the phenomena.  When you're "quieting" your mind...the only coherent way to take this in context would be that you are attempting to free up transmission space - so you can fill it with musical marching orders. You haven't gone anywhere, we can see you playing (and we can see your brain gearing up for the task at hand). You're simply incapable of pursuing your normal level of introspective transmissions (our nueral architecture is not capable of transmitting infinite packets of data). This is why you -feel- that way, that you are "out of body" or out of control, even though you're very clearly and demonstrably not.

You don't become the music, ffs...not even in "essence" - and what could that even mean?  That, is poetic language - not a description of the factual status of the  effect we're discussing. If you attempt to draw inferences from poetic language - regarding the subject of poetic language.....I don't see why you would have confidence in your conclusions. It's cold as a witch's tit.... what does that tell us about thermal mass and entropy?