Daystar's ban - Discussion

[Tiberius]

It seems the forum is almost split over Daystar's ban. I don't want this to seem like a dictatorship when the mods simply rule and whatever they said goes, so here is a chance to discuss the ban on Daystar.

I've copied the reasons suggested by a staff member (no names) why we should ban Daystar:

1) DayStar is an individual who believes he carries the only valid opinion.

2) This leads him to personally attack those who disagree.

3) In some cases, he wishes to upset and offend other members of the forum, in which case he can be called a troll.

4) Most often however, he leaves angry or insulting messages.

5) This forum is for debate and the exchange of ideas, however, DayStar seems to be on a mission to force his naive bible based opinions on everyone else and will not concede a single point. Therefore his presence here is pointless, counter productive and is also driving some of our members to distraction.

I also believe that a warning or some form of probation would have either a negative effect or none whatsoever!

He started off well but these past weeks he seems to have become a typical, bible bashing creationist who considers anyone that challenges him a delusional idiot.

Daystar was originally banned for a month for the above behaviour as it was anti-social and went completely against what debate forums should be. I've said multiple times before, that I'm fine with people throwing the occasional insult, as long as they personally face the consequences (in the debate environment) of doing it. We don't ban people for simply insulting someone, but we will ban them if they get completely out of order and start throwing insults at every single person who opposes them. This forum promotes civil discussion, and trolling is forbidden (as it is by most forums).

Some people may object and said that it is free speech, but I severely doubt any of you would like to continue in a forum where people are allowed to shout and curse and generally act immature all the time. We have limits on free speech in the real world, such as hate speech, and so we should have limits on forum free speech, such as in the case where it becomes apparent that the person you are debating has no interest in hearing any other side of the argument and simply spouts their own view repeatedly.

Daystar's ban was increased to permanent status due to his direct attack on the forums. He created a second account whilst banned (which is against the rules since it is counter to the ban), and proceeded to spam the PM system. Some of you are probably against a permanent ban, but would you really like to let a person back in who has so much respect for these forums that he willingly spams every member on it? There are not many forums out there where this punishment would even be reconsidered, due to the nature of the crime and the fact that it was a really immature and moronic thing to do.

So here is your chance to discuss the ban. We have three options:
1) Keep the permanent ban.
2) Reduce the ban to a month.
3) Unban him.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I'm biased so my opinion is probably worthless but I have been a forum admin elsewhere and I know how tricky that can be.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and to debate it and those of others, people do vent but may face consequences (I'm genuinely surprised I'm still here) but I think Daystar had gone "Berserker" and as such needed a cooling off period. That's what I would haver preferred because his earlier (pre-Berserker) posts did intrigue me, they did make me think (if only to make me do the necessary research to come up with a counter to the points made). As an ex-admin (for various reasons the forum faded into obscurity) I do think that any action to circumvent a temporary ban is unacceptable (my view is you take it and complain afterwards if you think it is wrong) and requires stronger action and if the next stage is a full ban so be it (in my old forum it was a week, then a month and finally a full ban).

So yes, though I am biased, I support the ban ... if he contacted you personally and apologised I would be tempted to give him a break.

He never PM-spammed me BTW.

Kyu

[allan175]

I'm happy enough with him having a permanent ban.

He did come across as very arrogant ("I know the TRUTH and I'm not going to look at what you think is true.") and debates were never actually a debate, just a matter of him stating his opinion and saying everyone else was wrong. I'm not fussed about his "personal attacks", I just saw them as an enormous weakness in his discussion skills.

He was unwilling to consider learning anything new because in his eyes he was already 100% right.

[Tiberius]

He never PM-spammed me BTW.

I deleted all the PMs he sent so they wouldn't waste space. Here is the PM if you are interested:

When Daystar had posted about 350 messages here he knew, from experience of posting on other Atheist message boards that he had only a limited time here before people would get tired of him not agreeing with him. Atheist like to promote themselves as open minded and tolerant because they don't like to think of themselves as the same ilk as Xians. Actually they are not. They are worse.

Anyway, Daystar started his "400!" Campaign. When someone, I think it was EVF, asked him what was so special about his upcoming 400th post, what was coming then? Daystar answere "The Machine!"

The Machine is The Pathway machine - a message board Daystar was working on of his own. A place where he could post messages responding to some of the places he had been banned from. Like this one.

Maybe you are asking yourself what I have to do with this. Well, I came around about the time the 400 stuff started. My name is Raymond Sheen. Ray mond sheen. Machine.

I am Daystar.

And I probably won't be coming back here in a month. I'm tired of being kicked around. You all are welcome at The Pathway Machine if you really want open minded conversation regarding Atheism.

Of course, I fully realize that you don't.

P.S. Adrian and the Mods; I know you will ban me and delete this post like you did my last post, Blind Watchmaker - Chapter 1, which I posted on the Atheist Blogger forum before I got banned from there as well, but I have already sent this post to every active member on the board.

Have a nice day.

[Kyuuketsuki]

I deleted all the PMs he sent so they wouldn't waste space. Here is the PM if you are interested:

Oh ... that's nice then

Kyu

[lukec]

Yes, he is a bit silly and arrogant, but frankly with the amount of time he spends on here, I think a week ban would've been long enough. To be honest, I think that when it comes down to it, Daystar well represents what a lot of creationists are like- narrow-minded, set in their ways, and unwilling to compromise. But at least he was here, and at least he was talking. Maybe he did disagree with a lot of what was being said, but frankly even if only 1% of what was being said around here, cus there is a lot of good stuff, sank in, I'd be happy. And that's not going to happen over at his new "Pathway Machine." If it were up to me, I would've officially warned him twice in private, then banned him for a week. If when he came back, the behavior had not changed, the ban would be for a month. Then permanent. But as I am not in charge.... [grins evilly to self] ....yet... [/grin]... all I can say is that I oppose the permanent ban AND the month long.

[allan175]

Yes, he is a bit silly and arrogant, but frankly with the amount of time he spends on here, I think a week ban would've been long enough. To be honest, I think that when it comes down to it, Daystar well represents what a lot of creationists are like- narrow-minded, set in their ways, and unwilling to compromise. But at least he was here, and at least he was talking. Maybe he did disagree with a lot of what was being said, but frankly even if only 1% of what was being said around here, cus there is a lot of good stuff, sank in, I'd be happy. And that's not going to happen over at his new "Pathway Machine." If it were up to me, I would've officially warned him twice in private, then banned him for a week. If when he came back, the behavior had not changed, the ban would be for a month. Then permanent. But as I am not in charge.... [grins evilly to self] ....yet... [/grin]... all I can say is that I oppose the permanent ban AND the month long.

That's the problem though, it wouldn't have sank in because he was already 100% right!
He *knew* evolution was wrong and was unwilling to read anything that might give him some indication that it might not be as cut & dried as he thought.

[CoxRox]

Well, it's tricky! I would be willing to give Daystar a chance to return IF he admits that:

he was very wrong to pretend to be Raymond with a dead wife- this has disappointed me the most about all this.

his arguments were totalitarian in a way, and he needs to have patience and civility for others' points of view.

He was starting to 'play' with us with his hints of the 400 and the machine etc. If he could see his ban coming, then why not try to avert it ? It's as if he was happy it had happened, so it fulfilled his own prediciton?? I don't know. Surely he can see that some of us here were happy for him to be part of the forum, and if he has any of Christ's love in him, then he should be sad that it has come to this and want to put things right. I don't think he is a troll or spammer. His one pm message to us was just a message to explain his 'side' as warped as it is.

[Edwardo Piet]

I think he should stay banned here. I was happy with a month BEFORE he did that spamming and disguising himself in such a sick way. After that, I totally think he should stay permanently banned.
I think he basically caused disruption overall and in the end was rather chaotic and deceptive.
I'm against his behavior and his arrogance. And I obviously disagree with his arguments but thats no problem for me...until his arguments are expressed with arrogance, flaming, repeated digressing, double standards and such dishonesty.
Its not him I'm against. Its the way he expresses himself. He seems to believe that what he did wasn't wrong. He seems to actually think he was right never mind acceptable! There's the self-righteous arrogance for you. But then sometimes he would do what he clearly new was wrong because he thought it was justified. And he totally wasted time. It was basically anti-debate in many cases.
Like when he told me Charles Darwin believed in God because of the edition of 'Origin' where he said 'the creator', I explained how I was very familiar with this argument and that it wasn't in the original, it was added afterwards - As Dawkins put it "probably as a sop to the religious lobby".
What was his reply? "Yeah I know Darwin didn't really believe in God I was just trying to annoy you".
And I told him "pity you failed "
Often he just wasted time because he wasn't willing to debate properly. Then he accused me of being bad at debating. Well whether I am or not - I mean I'm new to this - at least I actually debate! Daystar was often anti-debate. He often wouldn't debate at all and would just completely digress.
He has said that he can't answer all the quesitons, fine. But IF he's going to answer why are his answers so often a complete and utter digression if he doesn't like the question? It was time wasting and causing trouble.
So its not him I'm against, its the way he expresses his beliefs and arguments. And his flaming. And the fact he often refuses to debate when he doesn't want to and causes trouble! He was anti-debate when he wanted to be. He just debated when HE wanted to. He would avoid our questions (at least mine, I can't speak for everybody), but expect a lot of us to answer all his. Double standards there.
If he expressed his arguments better and didn't flame at people for no good reason. And wasn't so anti-debate when he didn't want to debate about somethimg, causing so much disruption - then that would be fine. The whole point about debating is the fact people disagree.
When they start acting like a complete prick and causing so much disruption thats the problem. I'm not saying Daystar's necessarily a prick himself, or he's a bad person. But for whatever reason, whether he is or not - he certainly acts like a prick when he doesn't want to address what you say to him. With the self-righteous double standards he holds. And that's what I'm against.
That's what I think. That's my problem with him.
Evf

[Eilonnwy]

I support the ban. It should stay.

I'm sure a lot of atheists have no problem debating people who will never change their mind. But personally I don't. I came here for discussion more than debate. Not saying I won't debate or that all theists should be banned. But theists should realize when they come here that mostly atheists are here and if they want a part of the discussion they need to be willing to concede points and not resort to insults. Honestly, when Daystar came he annoyed me to the point that I actually stopped visiting for a while. Almost all discussion posts became his and I lost interest.

Anytime someone comes to a forum, insisting that they are right, never conceding a point, and then cry about being treated with intolerance is not a person who provides meaningful discussion. (I often find that when people repeatedly claim they are being treated with intolerance are intolerant themselves, a dish it out but can't take it sort of person) I think we should always encourage theists to come and have a discussion, but remember this is an atheist forums. I didn't come here to debate theists, or I'd have joined an theist one.

I find that we can let a lot of things go but once they stop discussing and start only preaching, it's time to go. The Iron Chariots forum does that and I think it's a good policy.