Why is life programmed to survive?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Okay.

And of the flooding damage/disorder beaver damns cause?

... is soon brought to order again by -- you guessed it! -- life; which moves in and restructures the environment to better suit its own needs.

It sure does. And what ratio of earth is disordered for the amount of ordered metal atoms produced?
Let's take a look at gold: http://www.visualcapitalist.com/what-is-...ning-gold/
Top 50 grade producing mines move an average of 9.39 tons of earth for an amount of gold the size of a golf ball.

You'll have to show that the disorder has increased. Moving disorderly earth from one place to another doesn't demonstrate that. It's still a jumble of multivariate molecules ... only with the gold molecules separated out. In other words, it is a little more organized, chemically, and about the same, physically ... especially once gravity and erosion collaborate for a few years.

How so? Lets just take one organism out of the biodiversity pool...how about all bee's?  I wonder what disorder that might cause the biosphere let alone human civilization?

Hypotheticals do not an argument make. Try again.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Locally...what about globally? As in all the external ramifications of the entire process at all affected locations, not just the shiny trinket at the end.

Feel free to quote, with link, where I argued that life doesn't halt entropy in general.

I didn't think you needed the qualifier "locally", but I was apparently wrong. Of course life can only increase order where it actually is.

Did you really need to be told that, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

[Thumpalumpacus]

What you said makes no sense, what Jenny said is something simple that can be concluded based on our current knowledge, it doesn't take a genius. The will to live is an emotion, a desire, ok? That emotion or will we have is caused by our genetics. The organisms that never got this strong will to live because of their genetical makeup never survived.

Then why/how do some people loose it? I must not be hard wired...more like a suggestion.

Perhaps the will to live is like the speed limit; some people go faster, some people go slower, and some people don't take care of their car and it craps out on them in the middle of the journey.

Evolution doesn't operate on the individual level, but on the species level. One of the first things anyone who's studied it learns.

[RozKek]

What you said makes no sense, what Jenny said is something simple that can be concluded based on our current knowledge, it doesn't take a genius. The will to live is an emotion, a desire, ok? That emotion or will we have is caused by our genetics. The organisms that never got this strong will to live because of their genetical makeup never survived.

Then why/how do some people loose it? I must not be hard wired...more like a suggestion.

Perhaps the will to live is like the speed limit; some people go faster, some people go slower, and some people don't take care of their car and it craps out on them in the middle of the journey.

Not completely certain. The human brain isn't perfect, it's subject to fault. It can be the brain structure, diet, worrying, chemical imbalances, and some of em' are genetical, but I've heard from many that it runs through their family, indicating it's genetical. I have a friend, his now ex girlfriend is severely depressed and nothing worked on her, no diet, no medicine, no therapy, nothing. IIRC it is just the way her brain works.

E.g it can be a genetic mutation (happens all the time) that reduces your seratonin production, some are more prone while some are more resiliant. What we know for sure is all your emotions including your will to live as opposed to let's say suicidal thoughts are all chemicals in the brain, if somethings goes wrong, well.

[Arkilogue]

Okay.

And of the flooding damage/disorder beaver damns cause?

... is soon brought to order again by -- you guessed it! -- life; which moves in and restructures the environment to better suit its own needs.

It sure does. And what ratio of earth is disordered for the amount of ordered metal atoms produced?
Let's take a look at gold: http://www.visualcapitalist.com/what-is-...ning-gold/
Top 50 grade producing mines move an average of 9.39 tons of earth for an amount of gold the size of a golf ball.

You'll have to show that the disorder has increased. Moving disorderly earth from one place to another doesn't demonstrate that. It's still a jumble of multivariate molecules ... only with the gold molecules separated out. In other words, it is a little more organized, chemically, and about the same, physically ... especially once gravity and erosion collaborate for a few years.

How so? Lets just take one organism out of the biodiversity pool...how about all bee's?  I wonder what disorder that might cause the biosphere let alone human civilization?

Hypotheticals do not an argument make.  Try again.

Well sure that's all well and good for the order of the wetlands, but terrible for the order of the suburbs. What perspective are we looking from again?

And the fuel, machinery, chemicals and industry required to process that earth? Great order for man (something to do, green cloth paper to collect and shiny things to play with), terrible for the ecosystem. What perspective are we looking from again?

It's not a hypothetical, mass bee die off is happening right now. So is major food chain and ecosystem collapse in the oceans.

We make the order of plastic; one time use bottles and bags that stick around for hundreds of years, photodegrading into smaller and smaller pieces, killing at nearly all levels of the food chain.

Maybe it's more than order/disorder. Maybe it's a straight up sin against the harmony and symphony of Life an ultimately against ourselves. There is no other earth.

[RozKek]

What you said makes no sense, what Jenny said is something simple that can be concluded based on our current knowledge, it doesn't take a genius. The will to live is an emotion, a desire, ok? That emotion or will we have is caused by our genetics. The organisms that never got this strong will to live because of their genetical makeup never survived.

Then why/how do some people loose it? I must not be hard wired...more like a suggestion.

Perhaps the will to live is like the speed limit; some people go faster, some people go slower, and some people don't take care of their car and it craps out on them in the middle of the journey.

Some unfortunate people's cars don't work properly and are hard to repair* Everything about you isn't under your control whether you like it or not.

[Whateverist]

Of course.  And life does this as it must in whatever way it does and the survivors reproduce.  What do you think we are arguing about?  I concede that everything must be accommodated by life .. forces, materials, predators, same-niche competitors, you name it.  You keep mentioning more of these but why?  

My only point is that none of these things are exercising intention.  There is not only no designer there is also no plan being carried out of any kind.  Do you speak zen?  Do you know the poem:


Similarly life does not intend to survive to reproduce itself, rather, that which survives to reproduce will most often produce more life of the same kind because that is all that it can do.  The cosmos has no mind to impose anything, rather, the cosmos just is the totality of forces and materials with which all life must contend.  Is there intentionality behind the composition of the cosmos?  Of what would that consist?  I don't think so.

Does order and design require intention?

Well you sure do seem to want to say something in that direction. If you mean "design" in the sense of just the way a thing happens to be structured without suggesting "according to a plan" then perhaps we have no argument.

According to wiki:

Design is the creation of a plan or convention for the construction of an object, system or measurable human interaction (as in architectural blueprints, engineering drawings, business processes, circuit diagrams, and sewing patterns).[1] Design has different connotations in different fields (see design disciplines below). In some cases, the direct construction of an object (as in pottery, engineering, management, coding, and graphic design) is also considered to be design.

Designing often necessitates considering the aesthetic, functional, economic, and sociopolitical dimensions of both the design object and design process. It may involve considerable research, thought, modeling, interactive adjustment, and re-design. Meanwhile, diverse kinds of objects may be designed, including clothing, graphical user interfaces, skyscrapers, corporate identities, business processes, and even methods of designing.[2]

Thus "design" may be a substantive referring to a categorical abstraction of a created thing or things (the design of something), or a verb for the process of creation, as is made clear by grammatical context.

Can you see why I would interpret your use of "design" as signifying creation according to a plan?

Does a human father or mother design the fetus? No, the design of the fetus is inherent in the DNA re-combination of the parents. No "intelligent design" required. I have found the same in the relationship of the universe to God.  The order/design is inherent in the Origin, it is geometric and self limiting. Even science speaks of  the current individuation of forces and things as in inherent and "unfolded/unfurled" from the singularity of space/time/matter/forces before inflation.

(Where I've bolded) why not just say the "structure of the fetus" if you have no attachment to "design" as the carrying out of a plan or intention? For that matter if you are a deist who thinks the universe is something that God cannot help but produce, then the use of "design" is problematic. When I defecate I create something but I do not design it. It has a structure, one devoid of any intention of mine. Likewise, if the universe were truly God's creation but unreflective of any intention on His part - why not simply refer to its structure?

From what I have found in macro universal structure (several nested structures), life is inevitable and the total vibration of these structures on the fabric of space-time directly pattern for DNA. Geometrically.

Even without being privy to 'macro universal structure' (are you?), I too have often thought that life is a kind of complex chemical reaction which is inevitable under the right conditions. (I have no idea why you've written the part I've struck out. What are you trying to say?)

[Arkilogue]

Locally...what about globally? As in all the external ramifications of the entire process at all affected locations, not just the shiny trinket at the end.

I didn't think you needed the qualifier "locally", but I was apparently wrong. Of course life can only increase order where it actually is.

Did you really need to be told that, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Not at all. You only mentioned the refined metal at the end when referring to the increase of order by a mining operation, that's what I meant by "locally" as in "this here piece of shiny metal right here". Non-locally is the entire previous process of digging up the earth, smelting it down, stripping with chemicals and farting out as much exhaust as need to operate all this machinery...for this little piece of metal.

Say you could mine the entire surface of the earth as deep as you want for all the metal you could gather. Would you have increased the order of planet earth or decreased it? Or is the question invalid? Certainly all that metal would fetch a fine price at the Cantina Intergalactica and set your life up with as much order as you could afford...but what perspective are we looking from?

[Thumpalumpacus]

Well sure that's all well and good for the order of the wetlands, but terrible for the order of the suburbs.  What perspective are we looking from again?

I've already answered that question. Please read for communication's sake, rather than mere argumentation.

And the fuel, machinery, chemicals and industry required to process that earth? Great order for man (something to do, green cloth paper to collect and shiny things to play with), terrible for the ecosystem.  What perspective are we looking from again?

See above.

It's not a hypothetical, mass bee die off is happening right now.  So is major food chain and ecosystem collapse in the oceans.

And you'll show how this is an increase in entropy soon, right?

We make the order of plastic; one time use bottles and bags that stick around for hundreds of years, photodegrading into smaller and smaller pieces, killing at nearly all levels of the food chain.

I never said that everything life does increases order. Strawman much?

Maybe it's more than order/disorder.  Maybe it's a straight up sin against the harmony and symphony of Life an ultimately against ourselves.  There is no other earth.

I agree that we do much harm to our environment. We also do much to increase its habitability, now that we are beginning to understand the effects of our actions and inactions.

But you seem to be equivocating harm to the environment with regard to human habitability with entropy ... even as you keep asking about perspective. I get the impression that while you know how you feel about environmental degradation, you don't know that much about entropy.

Feel free to show that you do. But stick to entropy, because that is what we're trying to discuss here.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I didn't think you needed the qualifier "locally", but I was apparently wrong. Of course life can only increase order where it actually is.

Did you really need to be told that, or are you being deliberately obtuse?

Not at all. You only mentioned the refined metal at the end when referring to the increase of order by a mining operation, that's what I meant by "locally" as in "this here piece of shiny metal right here".  Non-locally is the entire previous process of digging up the earth, smelting it down, stripping with chemicals and farting out as much exhaust as need to operate all this machinery...for this little piece of metal.

Say you could mine the entire surface of the earth as deep as you want for all the metal you could gather.  Would you have increased the order of planet earth or decreased it? Or is the question invalid?  Certainly all that metal would fetch a fine price at the Cantina Intergalactica and set your life up with as much order as you could afford...but what perspective are we looking from?

I'm looking at it from the perspective of physics. Entropy is, after all, a physical concept. Your appeals to emotion don't change that brute fact.