Acupunture - pseudoscience?

[mcolafson]

1. What makes you think it is pseudoscience?
2. If it is pseudoscience, how does it help people?

I feel like the fact that you don't know how it helps people, such that you could just point to that and not have to ask that question, precludes it from being science right off the bat.

Scientists tend to, you know, require an understanding of the mechanism behind what's happening, before they'll accept that something is happening.

O.k.
let's say it is year 1825 anno domini, your name is Robert Brown and you are watching a phenomenon that they will later call Brownian motion. You cannot determine the mechanisms that cause this motion. Does it mean that the particles are not moving? Maybe you had too much drink and you are hallucinating?

[vorlon13]

for 99% of the time it's bogus, just like ear candling, cupping, chelation therapy, facilitated communication, psychic surgery, and a host of other quack stuff.

the 1% is the placebo effect, and most notably in my limited experience, of use mostly in cigarette smoking cessation treatment.

[Esquilax]

O.k.
let's say it is year 1825 anno domini, your name is Robert Brown and you are watching a phenomenon that they will later call Brownian motion. You cannot determine the mechanisms that cause this motion. Does it mean that the particles are not moving? Maybe you had too much drink and you are hallucinating?

If you cannot demonstrate the mechanism behind what you're observing, then you cannot reasonably propose a link between the effect and your desired cause. The particles are moving, and some people who undergo acupuncture are feeling an effect: the problem in both cases is bridging the gap between the effect, and the cause of it, and that bridge is an understanding of the mechanisms behind the effect. Without that, you can't rationally say that the acupuncture is what is causing the effect you feel, any more than Robert Brown could attribute the motion of particles to Brownian motion without knowing what Brownian motion is.

If you don't know how the acupuncture is helping you, in what sense do you have knowledge that it is helping you at all, over and above some other cause that's equally unknown to you?

[Homeless Nutter]

[...]Why should I believe these studies more than personal experience?[...]

My "personal experience" tells me that the Sun and the stars revolve around the Earth. Smart people figured out, that this isn't the case and presented evidence. Personal experience - especially if it's that of other people - is worthless, when it comes to asserting the truth.

Surely - if acupuncture did work, then there would be no reason, why scientists couldn't test it, validate it and find ways to use it, just like they did with virtually ALL other "alternative" medicine that turned out to be working. Believe me - "Big Pharma" would looooove to sell you needles, incense sticks and CDs of Eastern-sounding muzak, if they could prove efficacy of sticking people with needles, in a relaxing, slightly exotic atmosphere, beyond the aforementioned placebo effect.

Alas - acupuncture enthusiasts have no evidence to show, only claims and unverifiable anecdotes. That is what quackery looks like.

On a side note, is it too hard for you people to express yourselves without vulgarisms?

It really f*ckin' is.

[mcolafson]

Studies
Placebo

Next

Studies... There were studies that proved benefits of smoking. Also, there were studies that proved that smoking has no adverse effect on health. Studies that proved that smoking doesn't cause cancer.
Also, studies showed that eggs are bad for your health.
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Also, don't some studies prove that masturbation causes blindness and makes your palms hairy?

[Anomalocaris]

1. What makes you think it is pseudoscience?
2. If it is pseudoscience, how does it help people?

I feel like the fact that you don't know how it helps people, such that you could just point to that and not have to ask that question, precludes it from being science right off the bat.

Scientists tend to, you know, require an understanding of the mechanism behind what's happening, before they'll accept that something is happening.

You have it backwards. It is not necessary to understand the mechanism behind something to recognize something is happening. In fact, recognition that something is happening is the impetus for the search for the mechanism.

The problem with arcupunture is studies do not offer strong support for something happening.

[mcolafson]

O.k.
let's say it is year 1825 anno domini, your name is Robert Brown and you are watching a phenomenon that they will later call Brownian motion. You cannot determine the mechanisms that cause this motion. Does it mean that the particles are not moving? Maybe you had too much drink and you are hallucinating?

If you cannot demonstrate the mechanism behind what you're observing, then you cannot reasonably propose a link between the effect and your desired cause. The particles are moving, and some people who undergo acupuncture are feeling an effect: the problem in both cases is bridging the gap between the effect, and the cause of it, and that bridge is an understanding of the mechanisms behind the effect. Without that, you can't rationally say that the acupuncture is what is causing the effect you feel, any more than Robert Brown could attribute the motion of particles to Brownian motion without knowing what Brownian motion is.

If you don't know how the acupuncture is helping you, in what sense do you have knowledge that it is helping you at all, over and above some other cause that's equally unknown to you?

I can walk, work and sleep without pain-killers.
It's either acupuncture or the Holy Spirit.

[vorlon13]

oh, prolly should have mentioned Hawthorne Effect too.

I'm a big fan of that, and I could see an otherwise ethical practitioner resorting to acupuncture, particularly if the patient had given indications they had confidence in the technique

[mcolafson]

sic

Then I know another person who it helped.

And I know one that it didn't. Why privilege the experiences that align with what you want to be true, over ones that don't?
sic

Hm, human bodies and minds are quite different.
There are different types of blood, some people have heart offset to the right side, some people are introverts and some are extroverts...
Medicines cause anaphylaxis in some people..

I don't claim that acupunture is panacea or it works for ALL people.

[GUBU]

Studies
Placebo

Next

I highly doubt placebo effect would have helped me two times.

Then I know another person who it helped.

What studies?

Why should I believe these studies more than personal experience?

(damn, I know that theists also have personal experience with their God, but I am sure my p.e. is different)
----
On a side note, is it too hard for you people to express yourselves without vulgarisms?

Anecdote =/= evidence.