Richard Carrier - The Hero Savior Analogy

[RoadRunner79]

Yet another christ believer who insists upon conspiracies, as though they were relevant.  This is -why- discussions of the mythicist position are unfruitful, and it's pretty much the only song in the book..of late.

-Could- some great and vast conspiracy account for the narrative?  Sure, but who cares, since we're not discussing a conspiracy and one need not have occurred to account for the narrative...regardless of whether it's historical...legendary, or mythical?

Most of the myth advocates I have heard (including Carrier), normally turn to some kind of conspiracy (even if they do not like to call it that).  Otherwise, how do you account for the same story being told in multiple places by multiple people?  This would be opposed to a legendary account, in which the story was not invented whole cloth, but grew over time; distorting the actual history.  For both, that lack of evidence or reasons for their conclusion is a problem.  For the legend theory, their is also a lack of time, for the legend to replace the actual events.

Since you are not putting forth any arguments, I am going by what I have normally run into.   I would love to discuss something specific, if you would like to put forth your view that you are advocating.  However until then, I can only speak in generalities of what I have encountered.

[The Grand Nudger]

-You- need to see conspiracies, because -you- think that they are easier to argue against than the mythicist position.

-How do account for the same story being told by multiple peoples?

You're right, it must be a conspiracy, just like the conspiracy to tell our children that mary had a little lamb......

The lack of evidence for jesus is not a problem for anyone but yourself. The stories exist regardless. It;s interesting..I think, that you'd like to talk about legends. Do you know the difference between a myth and a legend? One is taken to be, or believed to be, based on some kernel of history. The other is not. That's it, that's all. There is no other general line that can be drawn between and extended to all cases. So, to make a determination of legend (in the former, rather than latter sense) against, say...myth, one need only point to the evidence of historicty. Which, frankly, you don't have. What you have are the stories, your belief in them, and the belief of others in the same.

[RoadRunner79]

-You- need to see conspiracies, because -you- think that they are easier to argue against than the mythicist position.

-How do account for the same story being told by multiple peoples?

You're right, it must be a conspiracy, just like the conspiracy to tell our children that mary had a little lamb......

The lack of evidence for jesus is not a problem for anyone but yourself. The stories exist regardless. It;s interesting..I think, that you'd like to talk about legends. Do you know the difference between a myth and a legend? One is taken to be, or believed to be, based on some kernel of history. The other is not. That's it, that's all. There is no other general line that can be drawn between and extended to all cases. So, to make a determination of legend (in the former, rather than latter sense) against, say...myth, one need only point to the evidence of historicty. Which, frankly, you don't have. What you have are the stories, your belief in them, and the belief of others in the same.

Rather than you guessing as to my motivations(and doing poorly), I think we would be better discussing the evidence... Now you take the historical evidence, and seem to dismiss them as just stories..... I am wondering why?

[The Grand Nudger]

No one -needs- to guess as to your motivations. You've made them clear. You insist upon conspiracy theories, plain as day. That's what you demanded that others explain, repeatedly, as though this were an explanation of the mythicist position....which it is not.

What historical evidence? Wait, wait, don't tell me "the bible says......"...................

[RoadRunner79]

No one -needs- to guess as to your motivations.  You've made them clear.  You insist upon conspiracy theories,  plain as day.  That's what you demanded that others explain, repeatedly, as though this were an explanation of the mythicist position....which it is not.

What historical evidence?  Wait, wait, don't tell me "the bible says......"...................

I'm not insisting on anything... In light of you providing your position, I am saying that is normally what I have found.   If you would like to provide your reasons, which contradict that experience, then I have been inviting you to do so.

And yes, I do believe what the bible says that others saw and reported on, is evidence (as well as the surrounding history).  I'm not saying, that every claim is true (there is more to it than that), but if you are going to deny this type of evidence out of hand, then I find you asking for evidence over the internet to be rather silly.

[The Grand Nudger]

No one -needs- to guess as to your motivations.  You've made them clear.  You insist upon conspiracy theories,  plain as day.  That's what you demanded that others explain, repeatedly, as though this were an explanation of the mythicist position....which it is not.

What historical evidence?  Wait, wait, don't tell me "the bible says......"...................

I'm not insisting on anything... In light of you providing your position, I am saying that is normally what I have found.   If you would like to provide your reasons, which contradict that experience, then I have been inviting you to do so.

And yes, I do believe what the bible says that others saw and reported on, is evidence (as well as the surrounding history).  I'm not saying, that every claim is true (there is more to it than that), but if you are going to deny this type of evidence out of hand, then I find you asking for evidence over the internet to be rather silly.

Excellent, than we'll hear no more conspiracy nonsense..right?  What, then, is your objection to the mythicist position...again? I can do nothing -other- than deny that "evidence" out of hand. Because I, for my part, insist on rational argumentation. That is the claim, not the evidence.

[RoadRunner79]

I'm not insisting on anything... In light of you providing your position, I am saying that is normally what I have found.   If you would like to provide your reasons, which contradict that experience, then I have been inviting you to do so.

And yes, I do believe what the bible says that others saw and reported on, is evidence (as well as the surrounding history).  I'm not saying, that every claim is true (there is more to it than that), but if you are going to deny this type of evidence out of hand, then I find you asking for evidence over the internet to be rather silly.

Excellent, than we'll hear no more conspiracy nonsense..right?  What, then, is your objection to the mythicist position...again? I can do nothing -other- than deny that "evidence" out of hand. Because I, for my part, insist on rational argumentation. That is the claim, not the evidence.

Same position..... and waiting on your rational argumentation.

[The Grand Nudger]

I'm sorry, of what, that stories of magical men are mythical?  Or that the story of this particular magic man is mythical? Which of those two statements would you disagree with most strenuously?

[RoadRunner79]

I'm sorry, of what, that stories of magical men are mythical?  Or that the story of this particular magic man is mythical? Which of those two statements would you disagree with most strenuously?

I thought that we where talking about The position of Jesus as a myth. And I am looking for whatever position you are putting forth.... but from your question, I gather, that your position is not based on logic and reason, or any evidence, rather than pre-supposing the conclusion in the premise.

[The Grand Nudger]

So neither, you wouldn't like to be seen arguing against either statement.  Well, excellent., we're done here.  Myth it is.

(it's always the same with you lot, that we assume this or that is just as much straw as the conspiracy bullshit but you cannot -do- anything other than pitch straw and bleat "the bible says" to begin with)