A Loving God

[Cyberman]

Is that Salvador's brother?

[ED scissor hands]

a loving God, I believed the Christian bible and the words to be true and placed them into my life style, , for over thirty years ,but then I do think if God loves us, why would he use a punishment so awful that it be torment and hell for ever,
like say for I,E,
if I believed in God and my mother did not, she would go to hell, and god would love me over her, ? is this justified or morally correct,
I love my mother, and I think God should also ,she is not a bad person, and she has sacrificed all to raise me, ...huh.....?

I and many others in the church including various church fathers didn't and don't believe that the bible teaches everlasting torment in hell.   I think this was included in my OP for this thread.  Did your mother love you and did she ever make you or let you suffer?  I'll bet she did.  Really though, I think that christianity has taken a large hit over it's embracing everlasting damnation and needs to really study what the bible says on this subject.

Hello Lek, thank you for your reply, I totally understand what you are saying , by saying that if my mother would discipline, me, yes , and it is part of growing up, but we are talking about a divine creator according to the bible that states those that are not following the commandments or the word of God , goes to the lake of fire, this is very clear, but no need to study what is stated as the lake of fire,
second, the real question to the hell and torment, was is it for ever and ever ,  or is it until you become, ashes under Gods feet, for once you have burn until ashes there cannot be no more, ,
so this was  the debate I have often dealt with in my standing up for the scriptures in the bible, now, let me put it too you this way ,
you will also say that God is not capable of evil for he is just righteous and cannot sin, or cause unjust harm to righteous people ?
so if you look up in the bible under Isaiah 45.7 it states that your loving God says, I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create EVIL
so how can God be righteous and just, if he also creates the evil that we are dealing with as sinful people, prior to adam and eve ,understanding knowledge,
that would be a good question,

---

Big difference between putting your trust in a doctor and putting your trust in an unevidenced being. First of all we know the doctor exists, we can check his credentials and look up databases kept by the local medical board(s) to ensure that he is keeping his training up to date and that he has no malpractice issues hanging over him. As yhwh is totally unevidenced we can do precisely no checking up on him.

Rob said he had no idea of how to have faith and I used an analogy.  It is akin to taking advice from a doctor because you're convinced he knows what he's talking about.  If you determine later on that he's a quack you can leave him.  I know my wife exists because I experience her; likewise I know God exists because I experience him.  If someday I come to the conclusion that he doesn't exist, then I'll let go.

And secondly we don't put our trust in doctors unconditionally in all areas.

You're right that the analogy wasn't a perfect one because I do put my trust fully in God, but it demonstrates the concept of having faith - you trust someone, at least in a certain area, more than you trust yourself.

But, objectively speaking, from the description in the bible you do follow an evil and unloving god. You follow a god for whom rape is ok, for whom racist slavery is ok, for whom murder is an acceptable punishment for trivial transgressions, for whom it is ok to go out and slaughter your neighbour and his family for their land and cattle (as long as they are not the same religion as you). By any measure that we can use yhwh would be evil if he were real.

Actually, I follow Christ who is, in my mind, presented as an individual with good morals.  If you have any verses that you think refute this, give them to me and I'll be glad to comment.  I believe in him because his Spirit lives in me and I have a genuine daily experience to verify that.  Jesus accepted the God of the old testament as his Father and as God.  Whether or not you believe the God of the old testament involves, to a great extent, your worldview.  If you believe that this natural world is all there is, then you're very likely to look at God's actions as immoral,  If, like me, you believe in an eternal God who is just and wrathful, as well as loving, then you would have a different opinion, because the effect of his actions counts for all eternity rather than just for the extent of our lives here in this world.

I'll go back to the doctor.  Sometimes the doctor does things to us that would be terrible is there were no further effects from what he's doing.  If a dentist just drills a hole through your gum for no reason, then he's committed a terrible wrong to the affected individual.  If a parent allows their child not to suffer any uncomfortable consequences for their actions or to receive any punishment for their wrongs, then they are not showing love for their child.  Like I've already stated, we all have to experience suffering due to the consequences of the screw-ups of those before us or just for being in a certain place at a certain time.  It's not what we're going through at the present time, but how we get through these experiences and how they affect and form us that counts.  I ask myself what kind of person is God purposefully preparing to reap the benefits of eternal life with him and this is something I consider when determining whether or not an action of God is loving, as well as being just or simply the best thing to do for the occasion.  

But it does depend on you making up an imaginary being to justify to yourself and others your morality and why you do what you do. I have no need for a voice inside my head to explain to me how and why I should take an action. I own up to my faults and mistakes because it is the right thing to do.

This is really where it's all at for you. You believe God is imaginary because you have not experienced him.  For me, I believe he is real because I do experience him.  I could say to you "if God isn't real then why have so many people experienced him?"  And you could ask me if I thought Zeus or whoever is real.  I'd say at least they were smart enough to realize there is a God because they were open to what the world showed them.  You don't have to go through telling me that they thought the world was flat or that the sun revolved around the earth.  Atheists believed the same incorrect things at the time as well.  We all learn as we go on and as we make new discoveries.  We had theists and non-theists in the past who believed the world was flat and now we have theists an non-theists who believe the world is round.  Maybe in the future we'll have people saying "those superstitious idiots believed that humans evolved from apes."  I do believe in evolution, by the way, but it could be proved wrong some day, but that won't change my experience with God.

Hello Lek, tell me if I am understanding your view of what you stated, you say you believe in jesus and God of the bible, and also evolution ? is this so or did I read it wrong, any way , just want to say that any one, that believes in God cannot believe in evolution for evolution goes opposite of creation,  if you were holding to that view, the other thing, if you believe in God of the bible as it stands, and the bible according to jesus says pray for it and God will provide and grant your request of petition of prayer, so to believe in God of the bible you must also believe in prayer, right , ? and if you do then it falls short, that you believe you be blessed and God answers your prayers , and not heal the starving children and the amputees that pray to have there limbs back, for if God is almighty ,you cannot say you walk and talk with him, when those in the moments of death and at the end of there lives do not get heard by God, would there be a justification fopr the suffering other then God in the bible says so ? this is where you cannot dismiss fact. from fiction.
I am only commenting to you , to show you , I have been in your shoes of belief and , I have done intense research to find the fault in the book, called the bible.
I am more then happy and willing to give you any and every scripture you need using your bible to show you that the bible is false and just a story book, but I do this out of love my brother, for knowledge is key , and love is everylasting....

[Primordial Bisque]

God does terrible things, but I want God to be loving. Those terrible things must be justified for God to be loving. I will call those terrible things just, therefore God is loving.

That's my synopsis of the OP, 3rd paragraph:

Anyway, the way that I link my view of universal reconciliation with the supposedly unloving and unfair God of the old testament is that, though we must all suffer the consequences of a sinful world, the punishment aspect has been overridden by God through the atonement of those sins by Jesus Christ.  We no longer need to suffer the punishment for our sins, which is eternal death, but we must suffer the suffer consequences of a sinful world, even as an innocent child must suffer consequences of a parent who screwed up the child's life.  For eternity, though, we will be with our creator sharing in his love in a perfect existence.  This is whether we had an easy death from drowning or being run through with a sword, as the did the victims of the old testament catastrophes, or whether we died a slow and painful death, as did so many others who were not victims of those.  To me, this really brings together the loving, yet just, God of both the old and the new testaments.

[Arkilogue]

Bad things happen to terrestrial beings on an active planet, through both "natural disasters" (planetary processes) and through our disharmonious actions with self, community and the biosphere at large.

Both have been blamed on directed punishment by a God.

[The Grand Nudger]

"Disharmony" as the source of natural and social evil.  Yeah, I think you've cracked it.  Is that like when I play an e.....and my daughter plays a g minor, off time then........ -bam-...there's an epidemic?   

" Pixies don't make love happen.......everyone knows that, gnomes do..... "

(I'm just giving you shit, btw, for the need to inject your own dogma into your objection of another groups dogma...you;re a good sport, I like you)

[Arkilogue]

"Disharmony" as the source of natural and social evil.  Yeah, I think you've cracked it.  Is that like when I play an e.....and my daughter plays a g minor, off time then........ -bam-...there's an epidemic?   

" Pixies don't make love happen.......everyone knows that, gnomes do..... "

(I'm just giving you shit, btw, for the need to inject your own dogma into your objection of another groups dogma...you;re a good sport, I like you)

Yeah, there is an entire living, accumulative biome going on around us, completely responsible for our present and continued existence. The disharmony is in our thoughts/actions that do not consider the long term/over all affects of destabilizing this biome and climate through ignorance, rampant commercialism and wanton greed. The result is death of biome, extremity of climate and destruction of man's civilization. It has happened time and time again.

The fall of civilizations are largely self created. If our society had a net positive "harmonious" gain through time, it would not be in debt trillions of dollars. The disharmony is self evident.

(It's all good, I have an x-large shovel and I enjoy the exercise....keeps me alive and healthy. And thanks for the skillful sporting competition! )

[The Grand Nudger]

Cool story. So, disharmony, basically, means anything and evrything all at once? It;s a phenomena of mind, a biological reality of our ecosystems..and an economic factor that figures into the fall of civilizations. I bet we haven't even begun to plumb the depths of the ways that you would abuse this word.

Sounds like a whole lotta nothing, to me.

[Arkilogue]

Cool story.  So, disharmony, basically, means anything and evrything all at once?  It;s a phenomena of mind, a biological reality of our ecosystems..and an economic factor that figures into the fall of civilizations.  I bet we haven't even begun to plumb the depths of the ways that you would abuse this word.

Sounds like a whole lotta nothing, to me.

You either harmonize your way down a rivers rapids or suffer the disharmonious consequences to your life. It's really that simple. There are many forces in already in play when you arrive on the scene. It's in your best interest to respect them. Time can carry you or bury you and even after it has buried all of us, it still carries some of our influences and civilization remembers these people. Even when civilization has forgotten, the past persons influence on the global mind gets carried.

People might not know who exactly first proved the earth goes around the sun, but it's an inherited part of most peoples world view.

[The Grand Nudger]

You "harmonize", I'll paddle. That's a lie (lol), I wouldn't go on a river without an engine...I'm not a savage.

[Arkilogue]

You "harmonize", I'll paddle.  That's a lie (lol), I wouldn't go on a river without an engine...I'm not a savage.

Hey, the more power an instrument you can handle, I say play!