What is evidence?

[Arkilogue]

I had the sad opportunity to gather some forensic evidence in an unofficial capacity on the death of a fellow tree trimmer (I didn't know him). He had managed to crush himself with a large branch, standing in a crotch 30ft up in the air. As a tree trimmer, the majority of my job is not getting myself or others killed.

So I inspected the tree and found no spike holes. This was evidence to me he was not using climbing spurs, greatly reducing his options for safe standing positions. In the direction of the killer branch was a close fan palm with all it's branches crushed on one side. This was evidence to me that he probably laid the branch on the fan palm which bent down and spring loaded the branch to be flung butt first back onto him. I asked around and found out it was the last cut of a long day and the final large branch cut of that particular tree, the remaining was just 30ft of trunk.

So I deduced he had restricted himself to standing in the crotch having no spurs to stab into the vertical trunk, was rushing the job to get it done, miscalculated (or didn't calculate or direct) the angle of fall and didn't account for the reaction of the fan palm to sudden loading. I later found out he was free climbing without a belt or local line either.

The confluence of all these missteps resulted in his accidental suicide.

Yes it's tragic yet I have to look at it clinically and technically so the I don't make the same mistakes.


What I want to talk about is the nature of evidence in relation to what one is looking for. For instance I was looking for how the guy was climbing and the lack of spike holes was evidence to me he was not using climbing spurs. But I could have been wrong. I have tossed a rope into the canopy and hauled my self straight up with spurs on to skip a trunk covered in vines, but it's rare and a pain in the ass. This was not a large tree, 60ft top max and the main working area was only 30 ft up, easily accessible by a quick free climb. My deduction was later corroborated and he was using no safety equipment at all.

I did not get confirmation on the exact sequence of events that landed the branch in his lap, whether the fan palm threw it back at him or not. But my many years tree trimming tell me this is most likely the case. Again, I could be wrong. I could have asked an eye witness but it was traumatic enough for them without me making them re-live the moment, it was not a quick death.


It was relatively easy for me to pick out these pieces of evidence...because I am very familiar with the work and I was looking for specific things. But what If I wasn't and I didn't know what to look for? The same evidence (or lack there of) would be meaningless to someone with no experience.


If you have any questions, comments or criticisms on how I've navigated so far I'd love to hear them.

Next major post will get more existential with the question "what is the uncut tree itself 'evidence' of?" And is that an "ask-able" question?

[The Grand Nudger]

@Thread Q

That which is evident.

(Have yall ever thought of just burning the trees down...lol,, or hitting them with a charge? Save all that dangerous climbing. )

[Arkilogue]

@Thread Q

That which is evident.

(Have yall ever thought of just burning the trees down...lol,, or hitting them with a charge?  Save all that dangerous climbing. )

What about the specific situation where I found lack of evidence of spike holes? Is that "evidence" he was not using spikes to climb?

(Burning trees tend to light other things on fire, exploding trees make a much larger mess to clean up including broken windows, high velocity impaling and blood. Much of my work is right next to houses.)

[The Grand Nudger]

What about the specific situation where I found lack of evidence of spike holes? Is that "evidence" he was not using spikes to climb?

Not the same question, is it, subtleties matter.  That something is evident, or in parlance -is- evidence..is one thing..what it's evidence -of- is another.  Copuldn;t answer that one for you from where I sit.  You seem to have offered at least one reason why it might not be.

(Burning trees tend to light other things on fire, exploding trees make a much larger mess to clean up including broken windows, high velocity impaling and blood. Much of my work is right next to houses.)

What kind of asshole builds a house next to trees that need to come down? Clearing the forest is step one in the human playbook. 

[Arkilogue]

What about the specific situation where I found lack of evidence of spike holes? Is that "evidence" he was not using spikes to climb?

Not the same question, is it, subtleties matter.  That something is evident, or in parlance -is- evidence..is one thing..what it's evidence -of- is another.  Copuldn;t answer that one for you from where I sit.  You seem to have offered at least one reason why it might not be.

(Burning trees tend to light other things on fire, exploding trees make a much larger mess to clean up including broken windows, high velocity impaling and blood. Much of my work is right next to houses.)

What kind of asshole builds a house next to trees that need to come down?  Clearing the forest is step one in the human playbook. 

But what I found was lack of evidence of something that "should" have been there. But in the same hand without the "should" I also did not find giant round tracks with 4 toenails so it was evident he was not using an elephant to trim the tree....which also would have been safer.

I know right? Freaking hippies..."I want to save the tree and build a courtyard around it!"..."Now I need to cut it down because it's cracking the foundation and destroying the roof!"

Me: "Great, now you can pay me all the extra money it will take to gently lower everything onto your roof and deck.....call me when you do it again."

[The Grand Nudger]

Not the same question, is it, subtleties matter.  That something is evident, or in parlance -is- evidence..is one thing..what it's evidence -of- is another.  Copuldn;t answer that one for you from where I sit.  You seem to have offered at least one reason why it might not be.

What kind of asshole builds a house next to trees that need to come down?  Clearing the forest is step one in the human playbook. 

But what I found was lack of evidence of something that "should" have been there.

Or not, as you yourself noted...but notice that this evidence is not -of- what you hope to answer with it....why he died.  That;s where people usually go wrong, the point of origin for many a "what constitutes evidence" question. Not speaking specifically of you, here, just in general, lol.

But in the same hand without the "should" I also did not find giant round tracks with 4 toenails so it was evident he was not using an elephant to trim the tree....which also would have been safer.

If I could clear trees with an elephant in this country I'd be in the clearcutting business.  

I know right? Freaking hippies..."I want to save the tree and build a courtyard around it!"..."Now I need to cut it down because it's cracking the foundation and destroying the roof!"

Me: "Great, now you can pay me all the extra money it will take to gently lower everything onto your roof and deck.....call me when you do it again."

Rgr that, I make my nut bilking hippies too.

[Arkilogue]

But what I found was lack of evidence of something that "should" have been there.

Or not, as you yourself noted...but notice that this evidence is not -of- what you hope to answer with it....why he died.  That;s where people usually go wrong, the point of origin for many a "what constitutes evidence" question.  Not speaking specifically of you, here, just in general, lol.

But in the same hand without the "should" I also did not find giant round tracks with 4 toenails so it was evident he was not using an elephant to trim the tree....which also would have been safer.

If I could clear trees with an elephant in this country I'd be in the clearcutting business.  

I know right? Freaking hippies..."I want to save the tree and build a courtyard around it!"..."Now I need to cut it down because it's cracking the foundation and destroying the roof!"

Me: "Great, now you can pay me all the extra money it will take to gently lower everything onto your roof and deck.....call me when you do it again."

Rgr that, I make my nut bilking hippies too.

True that, even if he was wearing spurs standing in that same spot, he would have been crushed. But at least with a local line he could have dove out of the way without fear of a 30 ft freefall.

Can you imagine how vastly easier it would be using an elephant??? I can't even pick up a single twig with my nose let alone a 1100 lb log! I'll should see if Genesha is doing anything next week.

[chimp3]

Good question, arkilogue. What is evidence?

This tree can be visualized with the naked eye. This unfortunate fellow a flesh and blood human being. Spike marks in the tree an obvious result of spike vs. tree. You have experience and knowledge of the tree trimmers trade. Your thorough investigation was possible without instrumentation. No microscope, telescopes, carbon 14 dating . A video recording of the event would have aided you in your analysis.

However, if you had not visualized the evidence at the scene but had merely done your investigation as a thought experiment you would have had no evidence, merely speculation.  You would have been able to imagine thousands of ways a man could perish in an accident such as this. A police or insurance investigator would quickly tire of your "evidence" and move you along. "Just the facts, please".

Now, I assume that Arkilogue will soon explain to us how he sees into the quantum world and outward to the the universe in its entirety. Through space time itself! Without so much as a particle accelerator or microwave telescope. I imagine he sees far into the universe while 30ft up a tree.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I kinda agree with Arky ... sometimes absence of evidence is evidence of absence. I wonder what other questions to which I might apply this principle?

[LostLocke]

I imagine he sees far into the universe while 30ft up a tree.

I can see far into the universe 1/3 of the way down a tequila bottle.