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RE: Atheist only discussion of morality.
August 27, 2010 at 9:58 am
(August 25, 2010 at 10:31 pm)theVOID Wrote: The only Atheist i'm really familiar with pimping this Objective Morality is Sam Harris - And like usual he's wrong.
Sam Harris seems to fall into the Islamo-Christian trap of the false dichotomy. Their argument is usually that either morality is prescribed by a deity or else anything goes. Implied, which Harris falls for, is "moral relativism = amorality".
If the statement "morality is objective" has any meaning, I would expect it to be somehow measurable, much the same way we can measure the speed of a falling object, the temperature in a room or the mass of an rock. I can't think of any way to measure "moral units" or how one might determine the right course of action by plugging numbers into a spreadsheet. The closest is Bentham's Utilitarianism but even here there's some subjective judgment as to the levels of pleasure or pain an action might bring.
The existence of a law-giving deity would not solve this problem for objective morality. In this case, you would have a deity making judgments as to right and wrong but how can we be sure that his/her/its judgment is sound? This isn't objectivity. It's deferring our judgment to another being's.
Some Christians have tried to get around this by claiming that Yahweh IS the very personification of goodness in the universe. This quality they ascribe to their god can only be determined by circular logic (Yahweh is good because Yahweh is good).
Morality is relative. The very fact that we use terms like "moral judgment" underscore the fact that on some level we must realize this is true.
Atheist Forums Hall of Shame:
"The trinity can be equated to having your cake and eating it too."
... -Lucent, trying to defend the Trinity concept
"(Yahweh's) actions are good because (Yahweh) is the ultimate standard of goodness. That’s not begging the question"
... -Statler Waldorf, Christian apologist
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RE: Atheist only discussion of morality.
August 27, 2010 at 10:55 am
(August 27, 2010 at 8:19 am)leo-rcc Wrote: ![[Image: p35291_500.jpg]](https://images.weserv.nl/?url=www.taylorgifts.com%2Fimages%2Fp35291_500.jpg)
Then into my belly. :p
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RE: Atheist only discussion of morality.
August 27, 2010 at 1:05 pm
I think that was implied.
'We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.' H.L. Mencken
'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.
'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain
'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
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RE: Atheist only discussion of morality.
August 27, 2010 at 1:29 pm
(This post was last modified: August 27, 2010 at 1:30 pm by TheDarkestOfAngels.)
(August 27, 2010 at 7:40 am)parrotpirate Wrote: Slight derail, but the stuff they drink on Futurama is Slurm. I seem to remember it being bug crap of some sort.
True, but soylent cola was mentioned in the same episode 'slurm factory' as well as the fact that soylent green is a real thing in the future, according to the 30% iron chef episode. It was sort of a one-off gag, but it did establish that people are drank, as well as eaten, just as a dolphin that stupidly lost everything due to gambling debts.
If today you can take a thing like evolution and make it a crime to teach in the public schools, tomorrow you can make it a crime to teach it in the private schools and next year you can make it a crime to teach it to the hustings or in the church. At the next session you may ban books and the newspapers...
Ignorance and fanaticism are ever busy and need feeding. Always feeding and gloating for more. Today it is the public school teachers; tomorrow the private. The next day the preachers and the lecturers, the magazines, the books, the newspapers. After a while, Your Honor, it is the setting of man against man and creed against creed until with flying banners and beating drums we are marching backward to the glorious ages of the sixteenth centry when bigots lighted fagots to burn the men who dared to bring any intelligence and enlightenment and culture to the human mind. ~Clarence Darrow, at the Scopes Monkey Trial, 1925
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RE: Atheist only discussion of morality.
August 27, 2010 at 4:09 pm
Popplers are also briefly eaten. Plus, Fry drinks an Emperor, then cries him out. Anchovies no longer exist. Ah, Futurama geekdom is wonderful...
'We must respect the other fellow's religion, but only in the sense and to the extent that we respect his theory that his wife is beautiful and his children smart.' H.L. Mencken
'False religion' is the ultimate tautology.
'It is just like man's vanity and impertinence to call an animal dumb because it is dumb to his dull perceptions.' Mark Twain
'I care not much for a man's religion whose dog and cat are not the better for it.' Abraham Lincoln
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RE: Atheist only discussion of morality.
August 27, 2010 at 9:10 pm
(This post was last modified: August 27, 2010 at 9:11 pm by Oldandeasilyconfused.)
Cannot pragmatism be argued to be objective? Utilitarianism as the basis of morality,which I contend is essentially the case, although interpretations of what is worthy and indeed the value of consequences vary. I may interpret 'worthy'' as "what is useful to me" others may use "that which is most useful to the greatest number". Stil' others may interpret as "that which is useful to the state"
I have no problem with the notion of objective morality. I do have a problem with the notion absolute moral imperatives and external moral authority.
Reduced to a sentence, my perception is that [in practice] morality is based on one and only one principle; "The ends justify the means".viz; pragmatism,which is arguably objective. OF COURSE there are exceptions; there are altruistic acts,a great many,but there are few if any altruistic people.
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Quote:Utilitarianism (also: utilism) is the idea that the moral worth of an action is determined solely by its utility in providing happiness or pleasure as summed among all sentient beings. It is thus a form of consequentialism, meaning that the moral worth of an action is determined by its outcome. The most influential contributors to this theory are considered to be Jeremy Bentham and John Stuart Mill.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Utilitarianism
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RE: Atheist only discussion of morality.
August 27, 2010 at 9:24 pm
(August 27, 2010 at 1:29 pm)TheDarkestOfAngels Wrote: (August 27, 2010 at 7:40 am)parrotpirate Wrote: Slight derail, but the stuff they drink on Futurama is Slurm. I seem to remember it being bug crap of some sort.
True, but soylent cola was mentioned in the same episode 'slurm factory' as well as the fact that soylent green is a real thing in the future, according to the 30% iron chef episode. It was sort of a one-off gag, but it did establish that people are drank, as well as eaten, just as a dolphin that stupidly lost everything due to gambling debts.
I must have missed that part. A lot of times I only half watch while I'm playing WoW or posting on various forums.
The one thing everybody needs to remember is that I never claimed to be sane!
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