Oh, ffs.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

I see.  So, if you believed in the tenets of National Socialism (and I'm not for a moment suggesting that you do) and orders came down that you would be required to help man the ovens at Dachau, no one has the right to criticize either the orders or to tell you that following them is wrong?

Sorry to have to inform you of this, but '...willingly listening to morons' has caused more sorrow, grief and eradication of human dignity than anything else I can think of.  

Boru

As far as I know, the Vatican isn't instructing anyone to commit atrocities or break the law. So that's not what I meant, nor would I do that or expect moral agents to stand by doing nothing if I did.

You're still not getting it. See my reply to abaris.

Suppose a Catholic couple have been married 50 years, the husband dies. The wife has him cremated and keeps his urn at home. It's what she remembers him by, it keeps her connected to him, and helps her through the hard, lonely times she endures without the man she spend most of her life with. And then the Pope, the Vicar of Christ on Earth, tells her that by keeping this anchor of solace in her home she is a sinner.

Not all atrocities are physical.

Boru

[abaris]

Have you got any links to those polls?

No, but believe me, they exist. Can't be arsed to look up what I read over the last few years for some board discussion. Too much of an effort for nothing, really.

[Excited Penguin]

Considering there over a billion people worldwide that base their lives on what the Vatican says,  I certainly give a shit what's coming out of their mouths.

I genuinely had no idea the number was that high...

That's scary.

Only 30% of those live in civilised first world countries, and of those most of them don't give that much of a fuck about what the Vatican says, I bet, and would renounce it as soon as it tried to take advantage of its provisory influence over them for its own political goals. This is only MO, it's hard to tell what numbers so large mean, even with citizens with so little political worth in the world as those of the larger portion of that billion. So sure, I can see why it sounds scary to you, but I'm not much worried about the Vatican myself.

[abaris]

You're still not getting it.  See my reply to abaris.  


Boru

I never expected to say something like that to you of all persons. But you doubled down on stupidity in your reply. Once again, it's about religious burials. Nothing less, nothing more. Many faiths have regualtions on religious burial rites. That's got nothing to do with nazis you dragged in kicking and screaming to make a cheap point of dubious value, to say the least.

[account_inactive]

Have you got any links to those polls?

No, but believe me, they exist. Can't be arsed to look up what I read over the last few years for some board discussion. Too much of an effort for nothing, really.

You're clearly more educated on the topic than me, so I'll just take your word for it.

[BrianSoddingBoru4]

It is an admittedly extreme comparison, yes, but a valid one.  The notion expressed elsewhere in this thread (that members of an organization must not be criticized for following edicts of that organization, nor should people criticize the edicts of any group of which they are not a member) is so severely loopy as to merit an extreme example.

Boru

It's about burial rights and ceremonies, damn it. It's not as if the world was on the verge of being destroyed over this. Muslims and jews have laws against cremation and require the dead person to burried within 24 hours, if I'm not mistaken. Is that worthy of a comparison with Nazis too?

Oh, Christ on a bike.

Fine.  If a police captain orders his constables to frighten children by threatening their parents, is it wrong to criticize the orders?  (Happy now? No Nazis, no ovens, no death camps. Sheesh.)

Boru

[Simon Moon]

Of course the Church wants you to store your loved ones ashes in a sacred, church-approved place.

It means more $$$ money from the gullible.

Religion in general is a scam. The Catholic Church has perfected the scam.

[abaris]

Oh, Christ on a bike.

Fine.  If a police captain orders his constables to frighten children by threatening their parents, is it wrong to criticize the orders?  

Boru

Please, give me a break. Are you now in the camp of the knife in teeth atheists who want to regulate the believes of people that totally don't concern us for the heck of it?

IT DOESN't CONCERN US, nor the world at large. It's a religious rule, like jewish or muslim burial rites. Or Hindu, mabye the Spaghetti monster has one too. Don't know, couldn't care less. It's got no influence on the world, as opposed as your offensive comparison, which very much had an influence on the world.

[account_inactive]

I find myself agreeing with abaris more and more these days.

What's happening?

[abaris]

I find myself agreeing with abaris more and more these days.

What's happening?

Probably maturing.