Ask a Bible college Student

[Rosie_Rivets]

Because, dear, you are far too quick to tell other people how to live their lives.  I should not have to demonstrate to you by now that I don't give a rat's ass about yours (or any) religion.  This is a simple issue of you not minding your own business.  When you are getting up in the middle of the night changing shit-filled diapers or paying to put the little unwanted bastards through school then it becomes your business. 

Forcing women to have kids they don't want is simply oppression of women.,  I know your church is fine with that.... but I am not.

And yeah, the government should pay for it because it is much cheaper in the long run.

This has nothing to do with religion. Any atheist will say that someone doesn't need to believe in God to know that killing the innocent is wrong, and I agree 100%. That's why I have not needed to bring God into the equation at all in this discussion.  

I understand not wanting to be parents, but people know that sex makes babies. If 2 people choose to have unprotected sex, they are consenting to the very real possibility of creating new life. 

We must also not forget that adoption is always an option. And I don't need a man to tell me that pregnancy sucks because I know it first hand. While most women feel mildly sick for the first trimester, I was severely sick during the entire 5 1/2 months of my pregnancy. There were days where I was barely able to move. My mental health was declining as well because of this, and for the last month of my pregnancy the baby was diagnosed with severe IUGR and I spent that month pregnant with a baby who I knew would die inside me. For a whole month, I was sick and pregnant and knew I wasn't even going to get a baby out of it. So I get it. I get that pregnancy and adoption are hard.

And I get that people make mistakes, and this isn't about "punishment" for them. But when the consequences of your actions involve either having to be pregnant for 9 months, or killing the completely innocent bystander who had nothing to do with the situation he was put in, the former seems like the obvious answer. Pregnancy is temporary, death is not. 

Also, I think you are forgetting that having a kid can really change someone, should they choose to keep rather than adopt out. There are many many people who are beside themselves when they have an unwanted pregnancy, but then they go on to have the baby and end up loving them so much and never being able to imagine life without them. I'm sure there are infinitely more people who regret abortions than those who have the baby and wish they had aborted them instead. It's not like many people become parents without wanting to and then think "Oh gosh, I wish I had aborted my son/daughter. Now I'm forced to care for them."

 

Pregnancy can also kill the mother, so it's not temporary for those unfortunate women/girls. In some countries where is abortion is not allowed, children as young as 11 or 12 are forced to endure pregnancy after being raped. This isn't just about morning sickness. I could barely walk near the end of pregnancy due to the agonizing pain and 4 and half months later I'm still not normal (thanks emergency C-section!). I haven't slept right since March. Pregnancy can have life long effects, and can also end a life.

And why should we put an even heavier burden on a system already full of unwanted children? Because you personally believe that an embryo is a person even though it's not? There is an entire society out here of diverse people that suffers the consequences of unwanted pregnancies and babies, but we're supposed to ignore all that and ruin millions of lives already being lived because some people think a fetus is a just like the rest of us.

[chimp3]

I think abortion is a property rights issue. A woman's body is her private property. Her body does not belong to a man, the state, or a fetus.

[Catholic_Lady]

I mean, they could just do one at a time and try with that one. And if it doesn't work, create another and try with that one... and so on and so forth. It may not be as quick/efficient, but it's giving more respect to the new lives they create that way.

Well...that is KIND of what they do.  The process of harvesting the eggs takes months and months, involving almost daily doctor's appointments, hormone replacements, and daily shots in order to stimulate the ovaries to produce a large enough number of eggs for potential conception. (My girlfriend got 16 eggs out of her first round, and those 16 eggs only yielded 5 viable embryos for transfer in the end.  

And then they do it at a clip of like, 1-2 embryos per IVF transfer.  So, my friend did 2, 2, and then 1, for a total of all five embryos over the course of three transfers. The nice thing is, the embryos are frozen so she could choose to do a transfer whenever she had the time.  She is a school teacher and it was hard to get the time off of work for so many doc appts, so she did her transfers over the summer.  And of course, just like any other pregnancy, you have to wait 3-4 weeks after each transfer to see if the embryo implanted, and if it didn't, you have to wait to get your period before moving on to the next one.  

But as I said, the embryos are frozen and can be used at a woman's discretion, so I don't think as many embryos are typically getting "wasted" or "discarded" as you think.  And a woman can always choose to donate her embryos if she decides she doesn't want to try anymore.  My girlfriend considered using donor eggs after 3 failed IVF's.  So, maybe it's not as wasteful of a process as you had thought?  

P.s.  I am not a fertility doctor.  I am only relaying the experience of my friend.  If I said anything factually or scientifically incorrect, please, someone with more knowledge on the subject, go ahead and correct me!  [emoji39]

If not, then I don't have an objection to it being done. I don't like the part about them being discarded/destroyed, but if it's done in a way that prevents that then I don't see a problem. 

(I wouldn't do it myself personally for moral reasons relating to my beliefs about sex, but if it isn't something that is hurting someone else, then I'm not going to say it shouldn't be done.)

[vorlon13]

Well...that is KIND of what they do.  The process of harvesting the eggs takes months and months, involving almost daily doctor's appointments, hormone replacements, and daily shots in order to stimulate the ovaries to produce a large enough number of eggs for potential conception. (My girlfriend got 16 eggs out of her first round, and those 16 eggs only yielded 5 viable embryos for transfer in the end.  

And then they do it at a clip of like, 1-2 embryos per IVF transfer.  So, my friend did 2, 2, and then 1, for a total of all five embryos over the course of three transfers. The nice thing is, the embryos are frozen so she could choose to do a transfer whenever she had the time.  She is a school teacher and it was hard to get the time off of work for so many doc appts, so she did her transfers over the summer.  And of course, just like any other pregnancy, you have to wait 3-4 weeks after each transfer to see if the embryo implanted, and if it didn't, you have to wait to get your period before moving on to the next one.  

But as I said, the embryos are frozen and can be used at a woman's discretion, so I don't think as many embryos are typically getting "wasted" or "discarded" as you think.  And a woman can always choose to donate her embryos if she decides she doesn't want to try anymore.  My girlfriend considered using donor eggs after 3 failed IVF's.  So, maybe it's not as wasteful of a process as you had thought?  

P.s.  I am not a fertility doctor.  I am only relaying the experience of my friend.  If I said anything factually or scientifically incorrect, please, someone with more knowledge on the subject, go ahead and correct me!  [emoji39]

No, that's precisely how it works. Sam and I went through the ICSI procedure and were preparing to undergo it again after the first round failed to take. And that's the point; the doctors harvested a whole clutch of eggs, plus my sperm, in order to get two textbook embryos with the highest chance of viability. And they didn't take. The rest would have had even less of a chance by comparison - as in "no good". I'm not even factoring in the sheer waste of all those potential embryos that likely self-aborted or otherwise failed to implant during the natural course of our relationship.

And please don't anybody hint at "God's will" or "not meant to be" or some such ignorant platitude. Not unless you want to see me get violent. This is not a preaching opportunity.

Preaching to the faithful though?

It's tough watching floods of heresies here.  It subverts the mandate of Atheist Forums to tolerate false doctrines proffered from folks claiming obedience to God and His Word when those false doctrines are nevertheless presented as His Truth.  It's difficult enough for the faithful to demonstrate/prove the validity of their actual scriptural doctrines, allowing heresy into the arena results in chaos and confusion. And how can they be further tasked with  defending heresy when they can't even defend their Truths ?

It's enough for us to point out the heresies, and identify them as such, they are amply refuted in and by Scripture. Additionally, we should be seeing the believers (the real ones) jumping  in refute the heresies we are seeing all too often as it is.

The religious certainly are welcome here to present their (true) dogma, strictures and edicts, and I'd defend that tenaciously.  However, I don't see any particular benefit to the forum, or any particular right either, for heretics to spew their Errors here.

For folks of a sincere bent, who take  profound difference with their (former) Sacred Writings, we should be suggesting/enforcing they be honest with us, and self-identifying themselves as schismatic.

That's  the best way of dealing with this issue.

[GUBU]

At 23 weeks (depending on where you look) a baby has between 27% and 35% chance of living, which has only been the case for the last few years as we only recently developed the necessary technologies. But then you've to factor in developmental problems which are very likely to arise, they almost definitely will have learning disaibilities and there is a high chance of cerebal palsy or severe brain defects from the lack of foetal development at birth.

coughsnippingbecauseitmakesyoufeeluncomfortablecough

Fine ignore the issues if you want. Go with the baseless religious ruling from a religious "authority" that for most of its existence was ok with abortion, and only came down on it at the same time it invented papal infallibility in the mid 1800's.

[GUBU]

Pregnancy + parenting is for life, most of the time.

I was talking about adoption.

If adoption were a realistic option, then the US fostering system woudn't be overwhelmed with children nobody wants to adopt.

Of course general anti-abort policy is to claim that if women were forced to carry to term this would cause the world to magically become perfect.

[Whateverist]

I hope you two aren't going to turn this whole thread into an abortion discussion. I was kind of hoping to hear something about poop and circumcision as well.

[pocaracas]

I hope you two aren't going to turn this whole thread into an abortion discussion.  I was kind of hoping to hear something about poop and circumcision as well.

errr....
Anal probably works better when you're circumcised.... less poop in skin folds.

Does that work?

[GrandizerII]

I hope you two aren't going to turn this whole thread into an abortion discussion.  I was kind of hoping to hear something about poop and circumcision as well.

Please no.

[Whateverist]

I hope you two aren't going to turn this whole thread into an abortion discussion.  I was kind of hoping to hear something about poop and circumcision as well.

Please no.

Fine.