My (probably unpopular) opinion on arab refugees

[henryp]

I'm saying this is how things are. That's just the dice evolution rolled.  It's not good or bad.  It just is.  Our evolutionary situation has put us in a nice safe comfortable bubble.  But do you see that you are viewing this from a very specific perspective that only applies to people in a very specific place and time.

And that the twofold irony, that your specific place and time were created by 1) the thing you are condemning (sorry indians), 2) a system that allows your place and time to be preserved through the actions you are condemning without you having to feel responsible for it (I held up a sign against it).

Evolution is not a proper consideration when determining what the right thing to do is BECAUSE it isn't good or bad. And history is not an excuse for repeating mistakes. Irony is also not an excuse to not do the right thing.

---

Evolution isn't good or bad.  The discrepancy in our thinking, is that I think everything is evolution.  Your determining of what the right thing to do is just a product of evolution, meaning that determination is also not good or bad.  It's just how you see things, which is irrelevant to anyone who sees things differently.

And this will never get anywhere, because your life is based on a series of premises that are essentially hardwired.  Premises so ingrained that you can't not project them onto me, because you can't empathize 

That's why people keep saying "Historical fallacy!"  People can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea of not believing everyone should act in accordance with your own beliefs.  I'm not saying anything is right or wrong.  I'm not trying to justify anything.  I'm just saying how things are.  As a practical observation of humanity.  Russia can bomb a bunch of Syrians in Aleppo if that's what they want to do.  Your moral objections don't matter to anyone but yourself.  

If you said "I want to eat a cheeseburger for lunch."  And I said "That's fine."  And  a 3rd person said "MEAT IS MURDER!!!  YOU ARE AN EVIL COW MURDERER!!!  ALL LIFE IS PRECIOUS!!"  It's still fine for you to eat the cheeseburger.  And the 3rd person is going have the same complaints you do.  And I'm going to say, people eat meat.  That's just how it is, buddy.  And they are going to say "HIstorical precedent fallacy!!!  Just because they ate meat, it doesn't make it right!"  And I'll say "It isn't a matter of right or wrong, it's just evolution."  And they'll say "Evolution is not a proper consideration...." etc...


Also, I don't think the bad things in history are mistakes. It's just history, with no need to qualify. All it does, is give us insight into what we are.

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To wall i'm not going to go over every point you made because there is no point really so i'll sum up

1. your long ass rant about moral this moral that is post modernist garbage and belongs just there

2.At no point did I call you names by your comments and your own admission of your condition (fyi I support neurodiversity because I am autistic  and no it's not looted together it's a spectrum

3. I called you inhuman not because you your condition but because of your attitude

4. your whole bullshit argument is one massive cluster duck of logical fallacies

My attitude is rock solid, buckaroo.  I'm just calmly discussing stuff with people on the interwebs.  You, however, seem to be getting a little emotional.  

But that's probably just a function of why we're here in the first place.  You probably find comfort in hanging out with a bunch of like-minded folks on the internet, just basking in the nice feelings of your shared world views, which is absolutely fine.  It sounds nice.  I'm here, however, to prod some human brains with a stick as I keep trying to figure out how they work.  So, I'm likely getting more of what I want out of this than you are.   I understand why you believe everything you do, and I'm fine with it. It makes enough sense. I'm actually not interested in changing anyone's opinion.  I just like putting an idea in front of someone, and seeing what they think of it.  I'm not trolling, I do believe the stuff I'm saying, but human obstinance (obstinateness?) is a very curious thing to me.  This forum, in fact, shares that curiosity, I think, except it's usually directed at how people manage to believe in God.  Although, you folks often seem to take that personally, where as I don't mind anyone believing anything.

[Thumpalumpacus]

That'd be a mighty cold world, I think.

It already is.

Yes, and why try to make it any better? You're right; let's simply accept things the way they are and not try to work and make things better.

You go on ahead and do nothing. I'm no defeatist.

[Autumnlicious]

My attitude is rock solid, buckaroo. I'm just calmly discussing stuff with people on the interwebs. You, however, seem to be getting a little emotional.

But that's probably just a function of why we're here in the first place. You probably find comfort in hanging out with a bunch of like-minded folks on the internet, just basking in the nice feelings of your shared world views, which is absolutely fine. It sounds nice. I'm here, however, to prod some human brains with a stick as I keep trying to figure out how they work. So, I'm likely getting more of what I want out of this than you are. I understand why you believe everything you do, and I'm fine with it. It makes enough sense. I'm actually not interested in changing anyone's opinion. I just like putting an idea in front of someone, and seeing what they think of it. I'm not trolling, I do believe the stuff I'm saying, but human obstinance (obstinateness?) is a very curious thing to me. This forum, in fact, shares that curiosity, I think, except it's usually directed at how people manage to believe in God. Although, you folks often seem to take that personally, where as I don't mind anyone believing anything.

Our general focus on "free speech" allows you to write your opinion, no matter how repugnant.

Doesn't mean we have to accept what you write, pat you on the head and give you a participation medal.

In fact, forum members may use their speech privileges to criticize you. I know it must come as a shock.

These must be trying times. Be brave.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I dont consider myself to be a bad person, nor do I think I have a grim vision of the world. I just dont like thinking everything is peace and love.

Nuance much?

---

It perfectly captures the "I don't have any responsibility to others in dire need" aspect of the OP. It's nothing more complex than that. It may be predicated upon a belief of "if no one cares for me, then no one should care for another", but at the end of the day it manifest the same way.

Reading this thread has Donne echoing in my head:

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

[henryp]

Our general focus on "free speech" allows you to write your opinion, no matter how repugnant.

Doesn't mean we have to accept what you write, pat you on the head and give you a participation medal.

In fact, forum members may use their speech privileges to criticize you. I know it must come as a shock.

These must be trying times. Be brave.

I just said I like hearing what other people have to say.  That's the reason why I come here.   I'm not sure what you've read that'd make you think I'm unhappy with anything that's been said.

---

It perfectly captures the "I don't have any responsibility to others in dire need" aspect of the OP. It's nothing more complex than that. It may be predicated upon a belief of "if no one cares for me, then no one should care for another", but at the end of the day it manifest the same way.

Reading this thread has Donne echoing in my head:

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

It's a very old idea.  I wonder how much of the notion is biological vs. conditioning vs reason.

A question I've never thought to ask...Do you have a dissenting voice in your head on the matter?  Or are all the neurons working as a team 100% on the bell always tolling for thee front?

[The Grand Nudger]

From an american perspective....fearing arab (and particularly muslim) immigrants is the height of poor risk assessment.  Our own home gown religious nuts have committed more acts of terrorism and taken more lives on our own soil than they have, and it's not even a close contest.  If an act of terrorism goes down, on us soil, the perpetrator is almost ten times as likely to be american than to be muslim immigrant (or even a muslim american).  Don't take my word for it, check the FBI's website.  They've been keeping tabs (90some-odd percent of all terrorist attacks since 1980 have been perpetrated by citizens - and that's over and above your usual fare like murder, rape, and assualt).  Immigrants from any demographic are positively docile compared to your bog standard american.  

Our vetting process takes 18-24 months to be moved in-state....3 if you don't mind being resettled overseas (lol.....Jordan anyone?).  Most never make it through, or disappear before their process is complete.......notably, many people who worked as assets in conflict zones overseas have had their applications denied.   They put their lives on the line alongside our military, in a way that the vast majority of -americans- are unwilling to do.  Good job there, never leave a man behind, right?  

Others wash out of process because their countries are shitholes and the necessary infrastructure for background checks no longer exists (if it ever existed)...and so, through no fault of their own and definitely not because they;re all a bunch of terrorists, they are -forced- to either stay where they are or illegally emigrate to someplace a bit more reachable.  It's hard to cross the atlantic and get into the US.  Alot easier to get into the EU.  Overburdening those countries and making a regional conflict a global issue. 


Calls for "stronger vetting" are a dog and pony show for we the people.  The societal evils of "foreign religions/cultures" moving into our areas largely express themselves as the shittiness that homegrown citizens devolve into for no reason other than being worked up by those who need them to work that polling lever.   


Long story short, when people are running, you don't point the guns at them, you point the guns at what theyre running -from-.  I don't know how or when we forgot that properly basic rule of being a human being. Passive assistance, like throwing food into the lot of them and hoping it gets into "the right hands" is naivety...as anyone whose ever doled out UN supply drops knows. The warlords take the rice and beans. Whose going to stop them?

[Iroscato]

That'd be a mighty cold world, I think.

It already is.

You realise that precisely opposes the attitude that led to literally every innovation and social change that improved the welfare of the human race, right? Would you prefer us to go back to wiping our arses with leaves and have most of our offspring die in childbirth?

[Amarok]

Evolution is not a proper consideration when determining what the right thing to do is BECAUSE it isn't good or bad. And history is not an excuse for repeating mistakes. Irony is also not an excuse to not do the right thing.

---

Evolution isn't good or bad.  The discrepancy in our thinking, is that I think everything is evolution.  Your determining of what the right thing to do is just a product of evolution, meaning that determination is also not good or bad.  It's just how you see things, which is irrelevant to anyone who sees things differently.

And this will never get anywhere, because your life is based on a series of premises that are essentially hardwired.  Premises so ingrained that you can't not project them onto me, because you can't empathize 

That's why people keep saying "Historical fallacy!"  People can't seem to wrap their heads around the idea of not believing everyone should act in accordance with your own beliefs.  I'm not saying anything is right or wrong.  I'm not trying to justify anything.  I'm just saying how things are.  As a practical observation of humanity.  Russia can bomb a bunch of Syrians in Aleppo if that's what they want to do.  Your moral objections don't matter to anyone but yourself.  

If you said "I want to eat a cheeseburger for lunch."  And I said "That's fine."  And  a 3rd person said "MEAT IS MURDER!!!  YOU ARE AN EVIL COW MURDERER!!!  ALL LIFE IS PRECIOUS!!"  It's still fine for you to eat the cheeseburger.  And the 3rd person is going have the same complaints you do.  And I'm going to say, people eat meat.  That's just how it is, buddy.  And they are going to say "HIstorical precedent fallacy!!!  Just because they ate meat, it doesn't make it right!"  And I'll say "It isn't a matter of right or wrong, it's just evolution."  And they'll say "Evolution is not a proper consideration...." etc...


Also, I don't think the bad things in history are mistakes.  It's just history, with no need to qualify.  All it does, is give us insight into what we are.

---

To wall i'm not going to go over every point you made because there is no point really so i'll sum up

1. your long ass rant about moral this moral that is post modernist garbage and belongs just there

2.At no point did I call you names by your comments and your own admission of your condition (fyi I support neurodiversity because I am autistic  and no it's not looted together it's a spectrum

3. I called you inhuman not because you your condition but because of your attitude

4. your whole bullshit argument is one massive cluster duck of logical fallacies

My attitude is rock solid, buckaroo.  I'm just calmly discussing stuff with people on the interwebs.  You, however, seem to be getting a little emotional.  

But that's probably just a function of why we're here in the first place.  You probably find comfort in hanging out with a bunch of like-minded folks on the internet, just basking in the nice feelings of your shared world views, which is absolutely fine.  It sounds nice.  I'm here, however, to prod some human brains with a stick as I keep trying to figure out how they work.  So, I'm likely getting more of what I want out of this than you are.   I understand why you believe everything you do, and I'm fine with it.  It makes enough sense. I'm actually not interested in changing anyone's opinion.  I just like putting an idea in front of someone, and seeing what they think of it.  I'm not trolling, I do believe the stuff I'm saying, but human obstinance (obstinateness?) is a very curious thing to me.  This forum, in fact, shares that curiosity, I think, except it's usually directed at how people manage to believe in God.  Although, you folks often seem to take that personally, where as I don't mind anyone believing anything.

Wow you have written a small novel yet have said pretty much nothing at all so i'll sum up

1. Miss using evolution and determinism just as many other dubious individuals have done throughout history and trying to pass it off as some objective critique of human nature. (and failing to do so) Then trying to falsely accuse me of hypocrisy for calling you out on it.(your cheese burger analogy is nonsense learn how to make analogy )

2.Nope your attitude is just as i have said weather calm or not (as if calling me emotional is a point against me as if to be rational on must forgo emotion) .And you don't know shit about my reason for being here nor is it any of your business . Nor do you comprehend my why i think as i do .And this has nothing to do with mere beliefs so you can drop canard .Nor do i care about  your motivations here. and no i don't think your a troll i think your something infinitely worst . and lastly good thing your not trying to pursued people because i doubt many would fall for your fallacies .

---

Our general focus on "free speech" allows you to write your opinion, no matter how repugnant.

Doesn't mean we have to accept what you write, pat you on the head and give you a participation medal.

In fact, forum members may use their speech privileges to criticize you. I know it must come as a shock.

These must be trying times. Be brave.

I just said I like hearing what other people have to say.  That's the reason why I come here.   I'm not sure what you've read that'd make you think I'm unhappy with anything that's been said.

---

Reading this thread has Donne echoing in my head:

No man is an island,
Entire of itself,
Every man is a piece of the continent,
A part of the main.
If a clod be washed away by the sea,
Europe is the less.
As well as if a promontory were.
As well as if a manor of thy friend's
Or of thine own were:
Any man's death diminishes me,
Because I am involved in mankind,
And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls;
It tolls for thee.

It's a very old idea.  I wonder how much of the notion is biological vs. conditioning vs reason.

A question I've never thought to ask...Do you have a dissenting voice in your head on the matter?  Or are all the neurons working as a team 100% on the bell always tolling for thee front?

And more insane babble

[henryp]

Wow you have written a small novel yet have said pretty much nothing at all so i'll sum up

1. Miss using evolution and determinism just as many other dubious individuals have done throughout history and trying to pass it off as some objective critique of human nature. (and failing to do so) Then trying to falsely accuse me of hypocrisy for calling you out on it.(your cheese burger analogy is nonsense learn how to make analogy )

What's the difference between you thinking it's fine to kill cows, when PETA folks think it's a horrific immoral act, and Assad thinking it's okay to kill humans, when you think it's a horrific immoral act?

Because people are people, and cows are cows of course!  Those stupid PETA people just don't understand the rules we should all live by, like you've figured out!

What's fun about that, is that white folks probably used to say that about black people a couple hundred years ago.  White people are white, and Black people are black! Isn't it obvious! 
(you don't need to answer. you and I can stop talking about this stuff now.)

A fun thing to do, is try to predict what you believe that is going to be considered an atrocity in 100 years (unless you think we are at the pinnacle of morality).  My money is on animals.  I think they've got the table set pretty nicely with pets.  The line is already getting pretty blurry on that front.  It's not unreasonable in the future that people who eat hamburgers will be viewed the same way racists are today, and you would be a monster for not thinking my cheeseburger analogy was rock solid.  And someone like me will be defending you, and someone like you will be "NO!  HE WAS AN AWFUL MONSTER!"  

As for evolution/determinism, that shit is going to hit the fan real soon.  It is coming, and it's going to be hilarious.  My guess is neuroscientists are going to get burned at the stake, as all the "Do you even science, Bro" people turn against science super hard now that it's saying something they don't like.  I just don't think it is a truth that can be accepted by the populace.  But it's floating around out there.  That Westworld show skated along the edges dipping the ideas toe into mainstream popular culture.  But in the end, they framed it as computers becoming human.  Not the more interesting notion, that humans are just fancy computers.

As an observer of humanity, it's very exciting stuff.  As a person capable of empathy, you should be very happy for me.

[Thumpalumpacus]

It's a very old idea.  I wonder how much of the notion is biological vs. conditioning vs reason.

A question I've never thought to ask...Do you have a dissenting voice in your head on the matter?  Or are all the neurons working as a team 100% on the bell always tolling for thee front?

Of course I have different streams of thought. What do you think I am, a simpleton?