Do you believe in free will?

[Flobee]

Wrong on the computer point. Computers were, of course, created by the human mind, not unintelligent physical laws, but indeed, rocks were. It doesn't matter whatever atheist you present to me who says, "Oh, humans are like computers!" (It may be true to some degree on the ability to compute figures, etc.) I'm sure Pinker was making a point (although in the context you provide, I can't see it unless you give a link), but to compare computer programming with human thought is insufficient, and computers are not at all the result of unintelligent physical laws.

Yeah it's strange isn't it that computers were created by intelligent beings and according to you the human brain was created by pure intelligence and yet the brain far exceeds any technology or human invention ever intelligently designed.
But if the brain was not the act of intelligence what reason do we have for trusting it? And I mean if we don't really have free will and our brains were created by unintelligence and we are not really guided by intelligence we are simply being controlled by deterministic natural laws I just don't see why we should trust anything.

[theVOID]

Yeah it's strange isn't it that computers were created by intelligent beings and according to you the human brain was created by pure intelligence and yet the brain far exceeds any technology or human invention ever intelligently designed.

No, we simply mimmiced abilities we posessed using mechanics, creating devices that operate very differently. Machines have their strengths, arithmatically especially they exceed our ability by an incredible ammount, but they are less powerful than the total processing capacity of our brains - hardly surprising when you consider the total functions to be regulated by the brain are many times greater than the functions CPUs are required to handle.

If i were to create a mind i would almost certainly give it the ability to do fast and reliable computations, something that our so called "intelligently designed" brains do not really do, suspicious is it not?

But if the brain was not the act of intelligence what reason do we have for trusting it?

Hate to burst your fucking bubble mate, but our brains are regularly unreliable. The only reassurances we really have about our perception of reality is from the construction of reliable methods to test and verify our assumptions. It is through this verification of our perception using independently testable mechanisms that we build confidence in our ability to understand reality, an understanding that is no longer at the face value level of your wizardry, but a deep understanding about a very complex and non-intuitive universe.

And I mean if we don't really have free will and our brains were created by unintelligence and we are not really guided by intelligence we are simply being controlled by deterministic natural laws I just don't see why we should trust anything.

Um, but if everything works accoring to physical law then our ability to have confidence in the nature of this system can only increase - If there is a wizzard who can do whatever the fuck he wants whenever the fuck he wants however, I would be far more suspcious of our ability to trust our models of reality.

And do you really think asserting free will is going to get you anywhere? If it was as simple as you seem to think it is do you really think this debate would have been going on for millenia as it has? The simple fact of this discussion is that from a practical aspect (our ability to verify or falsify) there is no difference between the free will or the lack there of.

[Edwardo Piet]

I'm talking about free will as in our ability to freely make decisions. We don't have any free choice when it comes to gravity.

Then, of course we have free will. I can choose everything. My favorite color, which foods I like and don't like, if I like this movie or not, if I should pick this job or this job, etc.

But that's defining mere "Will" as "free will". "I can choose everything" and "I can choose everything freely" are different. How are your choices not entirely dependent on the natural order of things? We, as humans, can make complex decisions. But that's not at all the same as free decisions. How is our "will" itself any more free than gravity when it comes down to it?

[chasm]

If you are not a naturalist what are you? Do you believe in some sort of supernatural power or spirituality?

No, I don't believe in supernatural powers or spirituality (I'm an atheist don't you know?). I don't really have any thoughts on the subject.

I never set out trying to prove God in this post I'm simply saying that atheism almost necessarily subscribes to the naturalist or materialist world view.

Dude, I'm telling you. Read the Satanic Bible or something. They are the group of atheists involved with materialism. Just because I don't believe in a divine being doesn't mean I have to believe in naturalism. That's like saying all believers have to like the color orange.

and I think we've shown that free will is not possible with such a view. So if you believe in free will I think it should make you think twice about believing in only a natural universe with nothing beyond it.

It is possible. But I can see I won't be able to sway you. You don't listen. Er, read.

No, I don't think free will should/would make me think twice about God existing. He's not real. There is no evidence.

That's like a Christian saying "I just believe it because the Bible says so and that's that!"

And they do say that! And that's fine with me. If someone wants to believe in God and it's because the Bible says so, that's on them. Now, if they want to talk about it with me, then I can tell them why I don't believe the Bible, but that's not going to sway them any. And if you ask me about "not knowing", I'll tell you the same thing. I don't know. I can admit that. As I said, I'm not going to believe in God because I can't find the answer to something.

Our belief's should be in accord with reason and I don't think believing in free will and naturalism can go hand in hand so you either decide you don't believe in free will or you don't believe in naturalism.

Everything, including the issue of "free will vs. naturalism", is not black and white.

But as you say you don't believe in a purely material universe, so what kind of atheist are you, how do you believe the universe got here?

I don't know if you could say I'm a specific type of atheist. I don't believe in God, or anything for that matter, if there is no evidence.

As I've said a lot, I don't know how the universe got here. I'm not an all-knowing being. That said, I don't believe in a purely material universe, but that is not proof or evidence of God nor will it ever be.

How do you think the universe got here?

---

But that's defining mere "Will" as "free will". "I can choose everything" and "I can choose everything freely" are different. How are your choices not entirely dependent on the natural order of things? We, as humans, can make complex decisions. But that's not at all the same as free decisions. How is our "will" itself any more free than gravity when it comes down to it?

Then what is our will if it's not free?

[theVOID]

Chasm, look at it this way:

We are the products of an accumulation of events, everything that shapes my psyche now is down to the events experienced in my life and the biological foundation upon which it is built - My biological framework is the product of my parents, who'm also had to experiece a specific series of events in order for me and not another child to be born, in order to meet each other etc, they are a product of the ticking of some kind of cosmic algorhithim that has been growing since the dawn of time conditional upon the outcome of the events it causes (like a feedback loop) as such there is only one single chain of events that lead to everything where it is being right at this moment - this is what my nature is right now.

If there were an infinite number of identical universes up to this very point in time where you read this post, in each of them i would finish this scentance in exactly the same way because all of the factors (what i know about writing, my influences, my biology, the position of all matter, the post i am responding to, the idea i am trying to convey, the material i read that influenced this position, the laws of physics etc etc) are still exactly the same, so the natural outcome of these events will always be the same - Keep in mind looking in retrospect is not the same, since there are new factors (an understanding of the situation) that can now be taken into account.

To say we can fight this causal chain of nature, and even decide to ignore the playing out of this scenario by sheer will requires that you believe that part of the human psyche is not part of this causal chain and that it can afffect causal events. This is supernature.

[The Omnissiunt One]

To say we can fight this causal chain of nature, and even decide to ignore the playing out of this scenario by sheer will requires that you believe that part of the human psyche is not part of this causal chain and that it can afffect causal events. This is supernature.

Why can't it affect causal events? In fact, it must do if it's part of the causal chain. That doesn't mean, of course, that the psyche could have been different, but I don't see why the fact that it is part of the causal chain means that the outcome of a decision will always be the same, given the same prior causal chain. The fact that a decision is made results from a causal chain, but the nature of the decision, I'd contend, may differ.

Now, I'm not convinced that this position is correct, and I accept that I may be wrong. But that's where my thinking is at the moment, and I don't think I could ever believe in hard determinism without experiencing cognitive dissonance every time I made a decision. Which is why I don't like it.

[Edwardo Piet]

If the universe is indeterministic, still, where is the free will? Randomness/probability instead of determinism is no more "Free" when it comes to choice.

---

Then what is our will if it's not free?

Unfree. If you are going to start from the premise that "Will" ="Free Will" then you're merely defining "Will" as "Free will" and you're not actually questioning whether our will is actually free. Which is the whole point of the discussion!

[Watson]

I believe in free will. I believe that when you are on a certain path, taking a certain action, you have every opportunity and ability to turn around and head the other way. You can also defy your nature and your apparent characteristics to become something new, someone different in life. It is called change, and it is good for you.

[ib.me.ub]

I beleive in free will. We all have the ability to make decisions and act on those decisions.

free will
–noun
1.
free and independent choice; voluntary decision: You took on the responsibility of your own free will.
2.
Philosophy . the doctrine that the conduct of human beings expresses personal choice and is not simply determined by physical or divine forces.

We should all take responsibilty for our actions and thoughts.

[krazedkat]

Hey guys, I'm Catholic but I enjoy talking with people of other view points and I'm just looking to learn a little bit about some of your ideas so help me out if you would please.

First you must know we have no belief system that is universal to all atheists.

I'm just looking to get some insights as to how most of you feel about free will and how exactly it fits into the materialist world view. If we are composed of nothing other than matter then doesn't that mean all that we are as humans is a bunch of chemicals and particles being governed by physical laws? Do we have no more control over ourselves then a rock does when falling down a hill, or a computer governed completely by our programming?

Atheist =/= materialist
Not at all! We have evolved into a being with a complex mind.

It seems like that is the only option if materialism is true, however it just doesn't seem like that explanation fits in with the universal experience of free will. I mean if an object is dropped it must necessarily fall to the ground because of gravity. But there is no physical law that makes it necessary for me to post on this forum, it seems like I freely chose to do it myself.

A rock is inanimate and the actions you describe are different kinds of actions.

Any way if any one feels up to it please explain your thoughts on the topic for me. Thanks

I feel that we do have free will and that it does not contradict my world view at all, not because of faith but because it ACTUALLY doesn't.