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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 16, 2016 at 4:57 pm
(This post was last modified: December 16, 2016 at 5:06 pm by purplepurpose.)
(December 16, 2016 at 12:07 pm)robvalue Wrote: I find it really hard to understand how people can think we're important enough for anything outside of our reality to give the slightest shit about us; as a race, let alone individually.
God views humanity as some sort of "crops", according to religious doctrines, ussually. For Him its important, that as much as possible "grains"/humans uphold his standard, by fighting the "good fight". He needs brave actors...
12 His winnowing fork is in His hand to clear His threshing floor and to gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.”
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 16, 2016 at 5:39 pm
(December 16, 2016 at 4:50 pm)Asmodee Wrote: (December 16, 2016 at 3:52 pm)wallym Wrote: Maybe not you, but I'm fucking amazing.
You really are. All the cool kids know it.
yahweh, allah, and the lord jesus christ all follow me on twitter. I don't follow back.
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 16, 2016 at 7:19 pm
(This post was last modified: December 16, 2016 at 7:23 pm by Pat Mustard.)
(December 15, 2016 at 10:54 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm sorry. I fail to see how Him having already seen what I choose to do = Him controlling what I do.
Because knowing what you will do is an admission that you have no choice in the matter. No choice=no free will.
To put it in other words if your future is known, it doesn't matter whether you know it yourself or not, whether you think that you have a choice in front of you. Because it is known that you will go a certain way, do a certain thing, speak a certain sentiment, the choice does not exist. Otherwise how could it be known?
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 16, 2016 at 7:25 pm
(This post was last modified: December 16, 2016 at 7:26 pm by AceBoogie.)
(December 16, 2016 at 7:34 am)alpha male Wrote: OK, if you've not made conclusions about God's power, I take it it's not an issue for you at the moment. If you change your mind and actually want to assert a claim regarding power, we can discuss it.
No, we can continue the discussion when you want to stop arguing semantics with me and actually respond to the original post without ducking and dodging every which way.
Jesus christ some of you christians on here should be politicians.
(December 16, 2016 at 7:19 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: (December 15, 2016 at 10:54 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I'm sorry. I fail to see how Him having already seen what I choose to do = Him controlling what I do.
Because knowing what you will do is an admission that you have no choice in the matter. No choice=no free will.
To put it in other words if your future is known, it doesn't matter whether you know it yourself or not, whether you think that you have a choice in front of you. Because it is known that you will go a certain way, do a certain thing, speak a certain sentiment, the choice does not exist. Otherwise how could it be known?
Yea CL I'm honestly not sure how it's so hard for you to see the contradiction in this.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 16, 2016 at 7:28 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 12:30 pm)pool the great Wrote: Wtf how can you hold contradicting views simultaneously so easily CL
I'm done here then..
It's not so hard, pool. Love is hate, after all.
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 16, 2016 at 7:37 pm
(December 16, 2016 at 7:25 pm)operator Wrote: (December 16, 2016 at 7:19 pm)Tazzycorn Wrote: Because knowing what you will do is an admission that you have no choice in the matter. No choice=no free will.
To put it in other words if your future is known, it doesn't matter whether you know it yourself or not, whether you think that you have a choice in front of you. Because it is known that you will go a certain way, do a certain thing, speak a certain sentiment, the choice does not exist. Otherwise how could it be known?
Yea CL I'm honestly not sure how it's so hard for you to see the contradiction in this.
Let's pretend time travel is possible, which we're already doing and more. We all 'know' Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK. If I travel back in time to Tokyo 1 minute before it happens, is there a chance I can turn on the TV, and JFK doesn't get shot?
Do you think the 1st time Oswald had a choice, and the 2nd time he didn't?
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 16, 2016 at 7:59 pm
To keep it short, the problem with free will is that God allows no free will and as I've seen discussed, the problem isn't whether God himself has free or not either. It's that with a lack of free will, one who goes to hell is literally doomed and determined to go to hell. That is a huge problem and makes the whole religion itself useless and the biggest thing is that if God dooms some people to hell and then gives them a book that shows them how to repent when they clearly aren't allowed to because God determined that they won't, then that means God is not just, and that is the opposite of what the religion tells. God does not work with free will and religion does not work without free will.
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 16, 2016 at 8:10 pm
(December 16, 2016 at 7:37 pm)wallym Wrote: (December 16, 2016 at 7:25 pm)operator Wrote: Yea CL I'm honestly not sure how it's so hard for you to see the contradiction in this.
Let's pretend time travel is possible, which we're already doing and more. We all 'know' Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK. If I travel back in time to Tokyo 1 minute before it happens, is there a chance I can turn on the TV, and JFK doesn't get shot?
Do you think the 1st time Oswald had a choice, and the 2nd time he didn't?
I'm not quite sure what this has to do with the topic at hand and I've stated before that a person being able to time travel is quite different than a god who created all things, including space and time.
“Love is the only bow on Life’s dark cloud. It is the morning and the evening star. It shines upon the babe, and sheds its radiance on the quiet tomb. It is the mother of art, inspirer of poet, patriot and philosopher.
It is the air and light of every heart – builder of every home, kindler of every fire on every hearth. It was the first to dream of immortality. It fills the world with melody – for music is the voice of love.
Love is the magician, the enchanter, that changes worthless things to Joy, and makes royal kings and queens of common clay. It is the perfume of that wondrous flower, the heart, and without that sacred passion, that divine swoon, we are less than beasts; but with it, earth is heaven, and we are gods.” - Robert. G. Ingersoll
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 16, 2016 at 8:17 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 11:39 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: I think you're thinking of it in terms of Him traveling back and forth in time and whatever He sees when He "travels" to the future is how things are set in stone to be regardless of what might change. Such is not the case. He knows what happens because He exists in a dimension outside of time, meaning He is already seeing the entire span of time and all the actions we choose to take all at once.
So it could be said that God exists in a dimension that it outside of our reality, which means that he does not exist in reality? 
In the scenario you describe (which I do not believe is mentioned in the Bible) God sees all of time laid out before him and he can see where we are at any point in it. So... what happens if he takes an action that causes a change or two? Many actions will ripple outward in some way and may change the future drastically. Does the timeline change to reflect God's involvement? Or is he forced to take the actions that he sees in this timeline?
"Well, evolution is a theory. It is also a fact. And facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts don't go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's in this century, but apples didn't suspend themselves in midair, pending the outcome. And humans evolved from ape- like ancestors whether they did so by Darwin's proposed mechanism or by some other yet to be discovered."
-Stephen Jay Gould
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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 16, 2016 at 9:31 pm
(December 16, 2016 at 8:10 pm)operator Wrote: (December 16, 2016 at 7:37 pm)wallym Wrote: Let's pretend time travel is possible, which we're already doing and more. We all 'know' Lee Harvey Oswald shot JFK. If I travel back in time to Tokyo 1 minute before it happens, is there a chance I can turn on the TV, and JFK doesn't get shot?
Do you think the 1st time Oswald had a choice, and the 2nd time he didn't?
I'm not quite sure what this has to do with the topic at hand and I've stated before that a person being able to time travel is quite different than a god who created all things, including space and time.
So if you know what someone is going to do the first time they do it, it's not free will. But if you know what they are going to do the 2nd time, it is? Even though the 2nd time is still the first time to the person doing the doing?
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