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RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 11:58 am (This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 12:03 pm by RozKek.)
(December 15, 2016 at 11:54 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Think of it this way. When we look at a cube, we are seeing 3 dimensions all at one glance - its height, width, and depth. Likewise God can see past present and future in this same sort of way. From the outside looking in, all in one glance.
That has nothing to do with what we're saying. We're not asking how God can see the future, we're mentioning that the God you believe in, if he existed he would severely* contradict your religion...
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:02 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 11:58 am)RozKek Wrote:
(December 15, 2016 at 11:54 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Think of it this way. When we look at a cube, we are seeing 3 dimensions all at one glance - its height, width, and depth. Likewise God can see past present and future in this same sort of way. From the outside looking in, all in one glance.
That has nothing to do with what we're saying. We're not asking how God can see the future, we're asking the problems with the fact that the God you believe in, if he existed would be able to do stuff that seriously contradicts your religion...
It doesn't contradict it at all. The problem is that we are on 2 entirely different ships when we're looking at this, and I don't know how else to explain my side in a way that gets through.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:04 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 12:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(December 15, 2016 at 11:58 am)RozKek Wrote: That has nothing to do with what we're saying. We're not asking how God can see the future, we're asking the problems with the fact that the God you believe in, if he existed would be able to do stuff that seriously contradicts your religion...
It doesn't contradict it at all. The problem is that we are on 2 entirely different ships when we're looking at this, and I don't know how else to explain my side in a way that gets through.
It does definitely contradict it and to me it seems that you're trying to find a way around this by saying 'look at this this way' and trying to explain it rather than answering some questions and questioning so we can both be on the same page.
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:05 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 12:04 pm)RozKek Wrote:
(December 15, 2016 at 12:02 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote: It doesn't contradict it at all. The problem is that we are on 2 entirely different ships when we're looking at this, and I don't know how else to explain my side in a way that gets through.
It does definitely contradict it and to me it seems that you're trying to find a way around this by saying 'look at this this way' and trying to explain it rather than answering some questions and questioning so we can both be on the same page.
What questions have I not answered?
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:06 pm
The argument that God sees things from another dimension has literally speaking no value because it does not matter at all. It has nothing to do with our arguments.
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:07 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 11:57 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(December 15, 2016 at 11:55 am)pool the great Wrote: Sure, I will agree with you that God knew what would happen but at the same time it would mean that God lied to me and God can't commit sin, right?
Um, sure lol.
Okay so this is confusing. You're agreeing with me and still not agreeing with me? C'mon.
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:08 pm
(December 15, 2016 at 12:05 pm)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(December 15, 2016 at 12:04 pm)RozKek Wrote: It does definitely contradict it and to me it seems that you're trying to find a way around this by saying 'look at this this way' and trying to explain it rather than answering some questions and questioning so we can both be on the same page.
What questions have I not answered?
My apologies, you did answer but you did not continue the discussion/pointing out what you think is wrong with what I said, I'll just quote myself and we can continue if you'd like.
RozKek Wrote:Exactly, let's say that is the case, in reality. Let's say God sees that I am going to hell, then I am going to hell as you said, and if you agree with that you do not agree with that I can go to heaven because he saw me go to hell. Then it does mean that I am doomed and determined to go to hell, because everything I will do no matter will result in me going to hell, because that is what god saw. Now if he saw me go to hell, then I cannot go to heaven because that means God was wrong, which contradicts God's nature.
The problem with your way around this is that you say that I can change my mind and then go to heaven, whilst God saw me go to hell, which means that whether you're aware of it not, you're implying that God could not see my change of mind for some reason, and that is contradictory. You are then saying that when God looked into the future and saw me go to hell, for some reason he didn't see me change my mind that would lead me going to heaven? If he can see the future then he will literally see or know every single thing you do including all your changes in mind, regrets etc that lead to the final result; hell or heaven.
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:09 pm (This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 12:16 pm by Catholic_Lady.)
(December 15, 2016 at 12:07 pm)pool the great Wrote:
(December 15, 2016 at 11:57 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote: Um, sure lol.
Okay so this is confusing. You're agreeing with me and still not agreeing with me? C'mon.
Not agreeing with you about what? I agree that it would be a lie on His part, I only said it like that because it seemed like a silly scenario to me.
(December 15, 2016 at 11:52 am)RozKek Wrote:
(December 15, 2016 at 11:39 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
Of course I can go to Heaven. But if He saw that I went to Hell, that means I went to Hell.
Exactly, let's say that is the case, in reality. Let's say God sees that I am going to hell, then I am going to hell as you said, and if you agree with that you do not agree with that I can go to heaven because he saw me go to hell. Then it does mean that I am doomed and determined to go to hell, because everything I will do no matter will result in me going to hell, because that is what god saw. Now if he saw me go to hell, then I cannot go to heaven because that means God was wrong, which contradicts God's nature.
The problem with your way around this is that you say that I can change my mind and then go to heaven, whilst God saw me go to hell, which means that whether you're aware of it not, you're implying that God could not see my change of mind for some reason, and that is contradictory. You are then saying that when God looked into the future and saw me go to hell, for some reason he didn't see me change my mind that would lead me going to heaven? If he can see the future then he will literally see or know every single thing you do including all your changes in mind, regrets etc that lead to the final result; hell or heaven.
Again, it's not that you "cannot" go to Heaven. It's that he already saw what you already did.
He isn't "looking into the future." That would suggest that He's in the present, looking at the future, which is not the case. He is not in the past, present, or future. He exists outside of time altogether. So no, he isn't necessarily looking into the future as a fortune teller would. He's seeing everything happen all at once. He's already seeing what actions you will be taking or not taking that will get you to wherever you go. He's already seeing what your mind has done, is doing, and will do. If you intend on doing something, but then change your mind and do something else, He already knew you would do that because he's already seen you do it.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly."
RE: Theists: How can predetermined fate and free will coexist?
December 15, 2016 at 12:29 pm (This post was last modified: December 15, 2016 at 12:31 pm by Neo-Scholastic.)
Under the eternalist theory of time, the idea is that God is fully present across all of time. As such past, present and future are all present to Him. That means that He doesn't know what you are going to do now because He already knows what you did tomorrow. Kind of a mind-bender but then again so is retro-causation.
Under the presentist or block theory of time, God knows only what it is possible to know. The future does not exist in either of these theories. No one can have knowledge of something that doesn't exist. Therefore, it is not logically possible for God to know the future.
Under the presentist theory that creates an interesting puzzle since the past is said to no longer exists. So by the same logic as above God could not know the past either. The work around for this is that He could infer the past from the state of the present. Which creates another puzzle. Could He not also infer the future? That depends on whether volition can only move from a present state forward. But that creates yet another puzzle. How can one truly say that past and future do not exist if we're moving from one to the other? It should be noted that it doesn't prevent Him from acting in such a way that certain but not all events are inevitable outcomes.
I guess my point is that everyone thinks they know what time is until they start thinking about it.
