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Slaugherhouse
#31
RE: Slaugherhouse
I;m simply informing you that it doesn't.  Organic is a designation that refers to agricultural inputs, not the status of the hens living accomodations. A battery farmed hen on NOP approved feed lays organic eggs. A battery farmed hen on NOP approved feed where the house doors are open lays organic, free range eggs.

Not saying that whomever you get your eggs from doesn;t run an organic free range operation that would in some way strike you as such...simply that neither label makes that claim in a legally explicit manner, and so cannot be trusted to be so for having the labels. Producers market themselves as organic and free range for having met legal guidelines, not the consumers expectations thereof.

Let me put this another way, a hen having "access" to the outdoors is like prisoners having "access" to a walk in the yard. Try to approach these regs from the POV of a massive middleman like purdue with a team of lawyers mining every line for ambiguity, and then a minor dash of practical consideration like whether or not you think the producers spend much time being chicken herders, or that the law even requires that they do so.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#32
RE: Slaugherhouse
(January 17, 2017 at 1:39 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I;m simply informing you that it doesn't.  Organic is a designation that refers to agricultural inputs, not the status of the hens living accomodations.  A battery farmed hen on NOP approved feed lays organic eggs.  A battery farmed hen on NOP approved feed where the house doors are open lays organic, free range eggs.

Not saying that whomever you get your eggs from doesn;t run an organic free range operation that would in some way strike you as such...simply that neither label makes that claim in a legally explicit manner, and so cannot be trusted to be so for having the labels.  Producers market themselves as organic and free range for having met legal guidelines, not the consumers expectations thereof.

Did you read the wiki I linked?

I have other articles, if you don't like wikipedia. Organic eggs laying hens must have regular access to the outdoors in order for their eggs to be labeled as organic.
Organic chickens used for meat, I agree with you, do not have to have that to keep their organic label.  Same with free range, that just means they get bigger cages, lol.

Legal guidelines for Organic eggs 
Quote: According to the United States Department of Agriculture, organic means that the laying hens must have access to the outdoors and cannot be raised in cages
It doesn't just say no cages, it says must have access o the outdoors.  If you go right to the DoA's site, is says the same thing.
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
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#33
RE: Slaugherhouse
I did, and it doesn't say what you think it does.  I do this for a living - simplify the standards and establish people in alternative ag enterprises (and try, mostly unsuccessfuly, to establish myself in the same, lol).  

Yes, access.  What do you think that means? If I open the doors from time to time, do they or do they not have access? What's the minimum? If I leave a hatch open but they never go outside..do they have access? Pro-tip, the difference between access and free range is how often the doors are open. Not being raised in cages is as simple as not having cages in your battery house. There's no shortage of labor saving structures designed to accomplish what the cages accomplished.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#34
RE: Slaugherhouse
(January 17, 2017 at 1:39 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I;m simply informing you that it doesn't.  Organic is a designation that refers to agricultural inputs, not the status of the hens living accomodations.  A battery farmed hen on NOP approved feed lays organic eggs.  A battery farmed hen on NOP approved feed where the house doors are open lays organic, free range eggs.

Not saying that whomever you get your eggs from doesn;t run an organic free range operation that would in some way strike you as such...simply that neither label makes that claim in a legally explicit manner, and so cannot be trusted to be so for having the labels.  Producers market themselves as organic and free range for having met legal guidelines, not the consumers expectations thereof.

Let me put this another way, a hen having "access" to the outdoors is like prisoners having "access" to a walk in the yard.  Try to approach these regs from the POV of a massive middleman like purdue with a team of lawyers mining every line for ambiguity.
Oh, I see your add-on there.

Well yes, i get that doesn't mean they are outdoors most of their lives, but it is still some time outdoors, which is the only label that promises even that.  It's far more human than other living conditions.

(January 17, 2017 at 2:00 pm)Khemikal Wrote: I did, and it doesn't say what you think it does.  I do this for a living - simplify the standards and establish people in alternative ag enterprises.  

Yes, access.  What do you think that means?

Well, at first you were disagreeing that they had access at all (at least it appeared that way to me, I mean, look at that bolded part, you can see why I thought you were arguing that Organic didn't mean access to outdoors) and you only added that last bit on after I made my post. I have addressed your edited post, now.

It means more outdoor time than hens that live in a building their whole lives, it's better than nothing.

I do think the standards should be updated to be less misleading for consumers.  Free-range is the best example. What are consumers supposed to think with that label?  It's essentially a complete lie.

And if the doors are open, and they are not allowed in cages....then how is that not access to the outdoors? I eman, the chicken is not free to go out the doors? I honestly confused here. I get they may still be crowded and have other poor living conditions like massive overcrowding, but I was only addressing the access to outdoors part.
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
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#35
RE: Slaugherhouse
It doesn't mean more outdoor time.  It means access.  Like most livestock, they stay where the foods at. The producer wants to keep them indoors, on the structures, laying. He encourages that behavior regardless of whaever little hole he leaves open on the house, for however long per day he leaves it open. A hen can lay organic eggs withuot ever stepping foot into the sunshine for a single day of her life.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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#36
RE: Slaugherhouse
I mean, I 'm just not sure what you are arguing. That the hens are still prisoners with horrible lives? Probably. That's one reason I've changed how much animal products my fmaily even consumes. But consumers have limited (and as we've both pointed out, choices that are full of lies).

The consumer already bears most of the responsibility for everything nowadays. It would be nice if companies were regulated in such a way that we could make better, more informed choices, but I guess that's a complete pipe dream.
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
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#37
RE: Slaugherhouse
A common practice, for example is to time the feeders with the doors.  Presenting the hens with a choice. I wouldn't call it a pipe dream...it's just that industry reps took control of the NOP process in the vacuum created by various ideological groups infighting as to what was to become the standards.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#38
RE: Slaugherhouse
(January 17, 2017 at 2:08 pm)Khemikal Wrote: It doesn't mean more outdoor time.  It means access.  Like most livestock, they stay where the foods at.  The producer wants to keep them indoors, on the structures, laying.  He encourages that behavior regardless of whaever little hole he leaves open on the house, for however long per day he leaves it open.  A hen can lay organic eggs withuot ever stepping foot into the sunshine for a single day of her life.


I see what you are saying.  The image consumers have is much different from the reality.  I completely agree.
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
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#39
RE: Slaugherhouse
I split the baby, personally, I think that the standards are deeply flawed...but a step in the right direction...so I never shy away from explaining to conventional producers how they can, with no noticeable changes to their current operations other than inputs, plug into that premium market.  The most common objection I/we got was "I'll have to change my whole operation, won't I" - the answer is always no.

(that part above, about consumers images...that was completely intentional, since producers endeavored to make the designations more about marketing than anything tangible)
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
Reply
#40
RE: Slaugherhouse
(January 17, 2017 at 2:12 pm)Khemikal Wrote: A common practice, for example is to time the feeders with the doors.  Presenting the hens with a choice.  I wouldn't call it a pipe dream...it's just that industry reps took control of the NOP process in the vacuum created by various ideological groups infighting as to what was to become the standards.

ARg, and after reading this, it does seem like large companies still find ways to completely cheat and never even let them have access to REAL outside. Sigh. 
http://theplate.nationalgeographic.com/2...-industry/

Quote:“After the big guys got into organic production using porches, more and more of the organic egg market was coming from birds that never went outside,” says Dena Jones, who directs the farm animal program at the Animal Welfare Institute. “If you ask any organic consumer, nobody would think of a porch as being outdoor access. It just wasn’t what the consumer expects.”

The new rules say that “outdoor access” means there’s no solid roof overhead and that half of the ground surface should be dirt that chickens can scratch and “bathe” in. Those requirements are more in line with the organic standards of the US’s biggest agricultural trading partners, including Canada and the European Union.
“They have much higher standards,” Jones said. “Theirs is more like a true pasture-based approach, but this brings us much closer.”
Of the roughly 12 million organic laying hens in the country, only about six million actually go outside, according to John Brunnquell, president of the Organic Egg Farmers of America, who also heads up Egg Innovations, one of the largest organic egg producers in the US.  Brunnquell explained that his birds all have true access to the outdoors. “What we see is that when you let the chickens be chickens, they live a long, healthy lives and lay a lot of eggs,” he says.
Of course it seems like these changes went into effect a couple of years ago, so even after readign this I'm unsure if Organic egg laying hens have to have real yard access or not.
 I don't know. Yet again, it seems like the ONLY option for consumers concerned with animals welfare is to not buy animal products (or severely limit it).   Undecided
“Eternity is a terrible thought. I mean, where's it going to end?” 
― Tom StoppardRosencrantz and Guildenstern Are Dead
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