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Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
#11
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
It must be fun to think you know the mind of God and what happens after people die.
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#12
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
(January 30, 2017 at 2:26 am)Godschild Wrote:
(January 29, 2017 at 8:21 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: Catholic but what I said applies across denominations.

You are very much mistaken, when I read your post I had an idea you were from a Catholic background. I'm not saying that's a bad thing I'm saying that because I come from a protestant background it was easy to recoqnize.

GC

Actually I read his post and assumed he was from some sort of fundamentalist background. Nothing he says sounds at all like my experience or what I've been taught.
"Of course, everyone will claim they respect someone who tries to speak the truth, but in reality, this is a rare quality. Most respect those who speak truths they agree with, and their respect for the speaking only extends as far as their realm of personal agreement. It is less common, almost to the point of becoming a saintly virtue, that someone truly respects and loves the truth seeker, even when their conclusions differ wildly." 

-walsh
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#13
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
(January 30, 2017 at 2:26 am)Godschild Wrote:
(January 29, 2017 at 8:21 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: Catholic but what I said applies across denominations.

You are very much mistaken, when I read your post I had an idea you were from a Catholic background. I'm not saying that's a bad thing I'm saying that because I come from a protestant background it was easy to recoqnize.

GC

It's also common to the Protestants this side of the pond.
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
-Esquilax

Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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#14
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
(January 29, 2017 at 5:10 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: There's a lot of debate nowadays between Christians and skeptics over whether faith is a good or rational basis for belief and it seems that generally speaking Christians today (more so than in the past) are so timid to the point of just wanting to have the foundation of faith tolerated as a basis for belief and not mocked. [1]

To me the peculiar thing about this is that up until very recently Christianity was saturated in an arrogance that still exists, but is not nearly articulated as much as it used to be, and this arrogance is basically that it is not only reasonable to have faith in their religion, but that we have a moral obligation to have faith in their religion. [2]

It would be one thing to say: "I know we can't really prove the truth of our religion and that it requires faith, but if you simply aren't convinced of Christianity, it won't be held against you, no harm no foul". In reality however the Christian message is essentially this: "You owe us your belief, you owe it to us to have faith in our religion in all of its aspects and obey it in every respect it demands obedience in; if you fail to fulfill this moral obligation you will suffer unimaginable horrors for all eternity." [3]

Christians still believe this today but often try to camouflage this fundamental arrogance in Christianity by appealing to pluralistic ideals, saying you don't have to believe if you don't want to and can believe or disbelieve what you like (leaving out the part that God is apparently so offended by this unbelief that you will be tormented for eternity). [4]

Coming to this realization was one of the biggest moments in my de-conversion process as I actually started getting quite angry at the thought that I was being needlessly controlled by a Church that impressed upon me from childhood the idea that I owed them everything. The onus was on me to give the Church my faith, and my obedience in all things they demanded, and to surrender my future and all it would entail, even to the extent of surrendering my own future children by handing them over to the rites and indoctrination of the Church, repeating the process over again in a new generation. [5]

Ultimately, when one is trapped in such a web of religious arrogance, it is a revolutionary act simply to say: no, the onus is not on me to have faith in what you say and I don't owe you my belief. The onus is on you to provide reasons for belief that justify the extraordinary claims and demands your religion places on people. [6]

1. I think you are misusing the word 'faith'. Faith is having confidence in something, and in this context, confidence that God is/will _____. So, how could a confidence in God be the rational basis for belief in God? Perhaps you mean someone's belief about God. But if that is the case, the sentence is circular: a persons belief in God is a rational basis for belief in God. I think most people have tangible reasons for their belief. 

2. If you believe Christianity to be true, that entails believing that Christianity is the only path to God. Following that train of logic, how does that equate to 'arrogance'?

3. "You owe us your belief". Who is the 'us'? You owe God and no one else. Seems to be you have substituted a particular church for God. So, to reword your sentence with the proper perspective: You owe God your belief, you owe it to God to have faith in his message and obey it in every respect it demands obedience in;  if you fail to fulfill this moral obligation, you will suffer unimaginable horrors for all eternity. See, that's much closer to the teachings of Christianity. 

4. Espousing some sort of pluralistic concept about approaching God is entirely irrational. A worldview that teaches that is a house of cards and easily brought down.

5. Again, substituting a particular church for God. Objecting to the attitudes and demands of an organization run by men in no way reflects on the truthfulness of the NT message.

6. What extraordinary demands does the NT gospel message place on people?
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#15
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
(January 30, 2017 at 2:17 pm)SteveII Wrote:
(January 29, 2017 at 5:10 pm)Redoubtable Wrote:


1. I think you are misusing the word 'faith'. Faith is having confidence in something, and in this context, confidence that God is/will _____. So, how could a confidence in God be the rational basis for belief in God? Perhaps you mean someone's belief about God. But if that is the case, the sentence is circular: a persons belief in God is a rational basis for belief in God. I think most people have tangible reasons for their belief. 

2. If you believe Christianity to be true, that entails believing that Christianity is the only path to God. Following that train of logic, how does that equate to 'arrogance'?

3. "You owe us your belief". Who is the 'us'? You owe God and no one else. Seems to be you have substituted a particular church for God. So, to reword your sentence with the proper perspective: You owe God your belief, you owe it to God to have faith in his message and obey it in every respect it demands obedience in;  if you fail to fulfill this moral obligation, you will suffer unimaginable horrors for all eternity. See, that's much closer to the teachings of Christianity. 

4. Espousing some sort of pluralistic concept about approaching God is entirely irrational. A worldview that teaches that is a house of cards and easily brought down.

5. Again, substituting a particular church for God. Objecting to the attitudes and demands of an organization run by men in no way reflects on the truthfulness of the NT message.

6. What extraordinary demands does the NT gospel message place on people?
1.  I think most people have tangible reasons for their belief. 
   Tangible reasons for their belief would mean that they have definitive proof of God.  No one on the planet has that.
2.  If you believe Christianity to be true, that entails believing that Christianity is the only path to God. Following that train of logic, how does that equate to 'arrogance'?
    If you believe that Christianity is the only path to God (and most xtian sects believe that is ONLY their variety of xtianity) then you immediately dismiss the beliefs of over 6 billion people on this planet as false.  That makes every single one of those 6 billion (give or take a few) people as "less than" YOU.  And most xtian sects believe that all of those people are deservedly going to hell to suffer for eternity due to their "wrong" choice of belief.
3. - I actually partially agree with this response.  However, the "owe God" bit is always completely intertwined with the sect.  There are so many different interpretations.  And it's very hard to owe (belief, obedience, tithing) to something that doesn't exist.  The money and the time go to support the sect, so they demand commitment.
6.  What?  You don't know John 14:6:  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  That was pretty clear, wasn't it?  My way or the highway.  How about John 15:6:  "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."  That's not only my way or the highway, that's if you don't agree, you'll be punished.   And there is this teaching that either you must believe that Jesus died to save you from hell -- so that you won't go to hell.  That not only demands compliance, but threatens eternal torture if you don't toe the line.   
     There is a lot of brainwashing in every religion.  And the level of peer pressure in a lot of churches is enormous.  Conform - don't ask questions, don't rock the boat.  If you do, you will not only lose your family and friends, you'll fry in hell forever.
"The family that prays together...is brainwashing their children."- Albert Einstein
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#16
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
(January 30, 2017 at 10:17 am)Drich Wrote: If you want proof learn to seek God on His terms, and hold on to something.

So the only way to come to understand the truth of your religion is by assuming it is true in the first place; then proceed to act and think accordingly? I don't see how this is persuasive in any respect. Islam makes the same exact demand, as do other religions and cults so why should I invest my faith in your Christian denomination versus any other, or Christianity versus any other religion?
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#17
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
(January 30, 2017 at 2:43 pm)drfuzzy Wrote: 1.  I think most people have tangible reasons for their belief. 
   Tangible reasons for their belief would mean that they have definitive proof of God.  No one on the planet has that.

2.  If you believe Christianity to be true, that entails believing that Christianity is the only path to God. Following that train of logic, how does that equate to 'arrogance'?
    If you believe that Christianity is the only path to God (and most xtian sects believe that is ONLY their variety of xtianity) then you immediately dismiss the beliefs of over 6 billion people on this planet as false.  That makes every single one of those 6 billion (give or take a few) people as "less than" YOU.  And most xtian sects believe that all of those people are deservedly going to hell to suffer for eternity due to their "wrong" choice of belief.

3. - I actually partially agree with this response.  However, the "owe God" bit is always completely intertwined with the sect.  There are so many different interpretations.  And it's very hard to owe (belief, obedience, tithing) to something that doesn't exist.  The money and the time go to support the sect, so they demand commitment.

6.  What?  You don't know John 14:6:  Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me."  That was pretty clear, wasn't it?  My way or the highway.  How about John 15:6:  "If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned."  That's not only my way or the highway, that's if you don't agree, you'll be punished.   And there is this teaching that either you must believe that Jesus died to save you from hell -- so that you won't go to hell.  That not only demands compliance, but threatens eternal torture if you don't toe the line.   
     There is a lot of brainwashing in every religion.  And the level of peer pressure in a lot of churches is enormous.  Conform - don't ask questions, don't rock the boat.  If you do, you will not only lose your family and friends, you'll fry in hell forever.

1. I should have chosen another word. Perhaps "real, individually articulated reasons for their belief" Proof needed to hold a belief in something is entirely subjective. 

2. Most Christians do NOT believe their denomination is the only way to God. The Apostles Creed summarizes the basics nicely. Anything on top of this is differences of opinion but not necessary for defining oneself as a Christian. 

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.

I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.

I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic (as in universal) Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

3. Again, you exaggerate the denominational differences and effect those differences have. 

6. Redoubtable originally wrote the that the "onus is on you (meaning the church) to provide reasons for belief that justify the extraordinary claims and demands your religion places on people". I wanted some examples to such a broad statement--possibly distinguishing the requirements of a particular church from that of the NT. You have good examples, but are missing the general meaning. If the core teaching is true and we have all sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God, then there is no way back to having a relationship with him. Christ provided a way to repair that relationship. Part of repairing that relationship is changing a person from the inside. So characterizing it as "my way of the highway" is overly simplistic since we are talking about repairing a relationship that, if not repaired, has terrible consequences.

Your description of what happens in "every religion" may be true for some groups. That does not mean that it is correct to do so. The NT is all you need. If someone else has added to it, then it is just added baggage that you can shed if you want to--without any eternal repercussions.
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#18
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
(January 30, 2017 at 11:08 am)Catholic_Lady Wrote:
(January 30, 2017 at 2:26 am)Godschild Wrote: You are very much mistaken, when I read your post I had an idea you were from a Catholic background. I'm not saying that's a bad thing I'm saying that because I come from a protestant background it was easy to recoqnize.

GC

Actually I read his post and assumed he was from some sort of fundamentalist background. Nothing he says sounds at all like my experience or what I've been taught.

I guess that's because of our different religious back grounds. I did think he could have possibly been from the Church of Christ or some emotional group, actually it doesn't matter that much he's wrong regardless. My original question was from curiosity.

GC

(January 30, 2017 at 11:53 am)Mr Greene Wrote:
(January 30, 2017 at 2:26 am)Godschild Wrote: You are very much mistaken, when I read your post I had an idea you were from a Catholic background. I'm not saying that's a bad thing I'm saying that because I come from a protestant background it was easy to recoqnize.

GC

It's also common to the Protestants this side of the pond.

Which side would that be.

GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
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#19
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
(January 30, 2017 at 2:17 pm)SteveII Wrote: 1. I think you are misusing the word 'faith'. Faith is having confidence in something, and in this context, confidence that God is/will _____. So, how could a confidence in God be the rational basis for belief in God? Perhaps you mean someone's belief about God. But if that is the case, the sentence is circular: a persons belief in God is a rational basis for belief in God. I think most people have tangible reasons for their belief. 

I don't agree that faith is merely synonymous with "confidence", it has far too many additional connotations not the least of which is that faith is also characterized as a gift, a supernatural grace from God. In a more common sense I think of it as belief beyond the evidence, that at some point there is a break with proportioning belief with evidence and one takes a leap of faith and just assumes the truth of what is claimed despite not having proof.

The problem I have with this is that up until that point believers are fine with invoking the need for proof and proportionate evidence (especially when debating believers of rival religions), but then suddenly pull out the faith card once their reasoning fails them and they need some justification to accept belief in a reality they can't arrive at without invoking faith. So you'll see a Christian criticize the Qur'an for its contradictions, but when similar criticisms are made about the Bible, the "evidence mode" gets switched off in their minds and we're back to "faith mode" as there is no length a Christian will not go to in attempting to square the circle in claiming there is no contradiction, because regardless of the criticism (and the evidence supporting it), the conclusion has already been reached in advance thanks to faith based belief which precludes one from entertaining the possibility that they are wrong about the belief system that demands faith in the first place.

(January 30, 2017 at 2:17 pm)SteveII Wrote: 2. If you believe Christianity to be true, that entails believing that Christianity is the only path to God. Following that train of logic, how does that equate to 'arrogance'?

It equates to arrogance when you de-mystify the religion and view it from the perspective of it not being true, but just a bunch of religious leaders (whether it be pastors, priests, whatever) imposing a myth-based worldview on children and others, having their entire position predicated on the presumption that the human race owes its adherence to their views without offering any reasons for belief proportionate to the extraordinary claims they make. This arrogance was taken so far that you were once considered unfit to live if you spoke against what were considered the correct religious views. Such people were tortured and executed as heretics under both Catholic and Protestant governments of the past.
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#20
RE: Fundamental Arrogance in Christianity
Isn't it amusing that reps of both major brands hear the same thing and think "oh, that's obviously the other guys"........
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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