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There's a lot of debate nowadays between Christians and skeptics over whether faith is a good or rational basis for belief and it seems that generally speaking Christians today (more so than in the past) are so timid to the point of just wanting to have the foundation of faith tolerated as a basis for belief and not mocked.
To me the peculiar thing about this is that up until very recently Christianity was saturated in an arrogance that still exists, but is not nearly articulated as much as it used to be, and this arrogance is basically that it is not only reasonable to have faith in their religion, but that we have a moral obligation to have faith in their religion.
It would be one thing to say: "I know we can't really prove the truth of our religion and that it requires faith, but if you simply aren't convinced of Christianity, it won't be held against you, no harm no foul". In reality however the Christian message is essentially this: "You owe us your belief, you owe it to us to have faith in our religion in all of its aspects and obey it in every respect it demands obedience in; if you fail to fulfill this moral obligation you will suffer unimaginable horrors for all eternity."
Christians still believe this today but often try to camouflage this fundamental arrogance in Christianity by appealing to pluralistic ideals, saying you don't have to believe if you don't want to and can believe or disbelieve what you like (leaving out the part that God is apparently so offended by this unbelief that you will be tormented for eternity).
Coming to this realization was one of the biggest moments in my de-conversion process as I actually started getting quite angry at the thought that I was being needlessly controlled by a Church that impressed upon me from childhood the idea that I owed them everything. The onus was on me to give the Church my faith, and my obedience in all things they demanded, and to surrender my future and all it would entail, even to the extent of surrendering my own future children by handing them over to the rites and indoctrination of the Church, repeating the process over again in a new generation.
Ultimately, when one is trapped in such a web of religious arrogance, it is a revolutionary act simply to say: no, the onus is not on me to have faith in what you say and I don't owe you my belief. The onus is on you to provide reasons for belief that justify the extraordinary claims and demands your religion places on people.
January 29, 2017 at 5:49 pm (This post was last modified: January 29, 2017 at 5:50 pm by Chad32.)
There doesn't seem to be much point in organized religion, unless they also say you have an obligation to believe in it. Religion is a tool, and the main purpose is to control the masses. Yes it's very arrogant to try to force people to do something, while also being unable to produce concrete evidence that what you're saying isn't bullshit.
Poe's Law: "Without a winking smiley or other blatant display of humor, it is impossible to create a parody of Fundamentalism that SOMEONE won't mistake for the real thing."
There's a lot of debate nowadays between Christians and skeptics over whether faith is a good or rational basis for belief and it seems that generally speaking Christians today (more so than in the past) are so timid to the point of just wanting to have the foundation of faith tolerated as a basis for belief and not mocked.
To me the peculiar thing about this is that up until very recently Christianity was saturated in an arrogance that still exists, but is not nearly articulated as much as it used to be, and this arrogance is basically that it is not only reasonable to have faith in their religion, but that we have a moral obligation to have faith in their religion.
It would be one thing to say: "I know we can't really prove the truth of our religion and that it requires faith, but if you simply aren't convinced of Christianity, it won't be held against you, no harm no foul". In reality however the Christian message is essentially this: "You owe us your belief, you owe it to us to have faith in our religion in all of its aspects and obey it in every respect it demands obedience in; if you fail to fulfill this moral obligation you will suffer unimaginable horrors for all eternity."
Christians still believe this today but often try to camouflage this fundamental arrogance in Christianity by appealing to pluralistic ideals, saying you don't have to believe if you don't want to and can believe or disbelieve what you like (leaving out the part that God is apparently so offended by this unbelief that you will be tormented for eternity).
Coming to this realization was one of the biggest moments in my de-conversion process as I actually started getting quite angry at the thought that I was being needlessly controlled by a Church that impressed upon me from childhood the idea that I owed them everything. The onus was on me to give the Church my faith, and my obedience in all things they demanded, and to surrender my future and all it would entail, even to the extent of surrendering my own future children by handing them over to the rites and indoctrination of the Church, repeating the process over again in a new generation.
Ultimately, when one is trapped in such a web of religious arrogance, it is a revolutionary act simply to say: no, the onus is not on me to have faith in what you say and I don't owe you my belief. The onus is on you to provide reasons for belief that justify the extraordinary claims and demands your religion places on people.
What denomination did you belong to?
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
January 30, 2017 at 1:37 am (This post was last modified: January 30, 2017 at 2:24 am by robvalue.)
I agree that anyone who thinks their faith and resultant beliefs deserve respect without question can get bent. I don't owe anyone that. I will respect them as a person, and I will respect their right to believe what they wish and to voice their beliefs (non-intrusively), but I won't pretend to respect the actual beliefs if they are stupid bullshit.
Faith is a joke. It's a desperate attempt to cling onto magical stories, instead of facing reality on its own terms. It's dangerous, because you can view this life as the warm-up rather than the main event. A sceptic has more reason to make the most of this life.
PS: If a person of faith expects me to respect their faith, do they find my belief that their faith is bullshit respectable or not?
PPS: I would never, however, go tell some random theist my opinion in person; nor would I bring it up in discussion with them unless they ask for my thoughts on it.
But I'll happily write it for all to see here. No one is making anyone read my posts.
Feel free to send me a private message.
Please visit my website here! It's got lots of information about atheism/theism and support for new atheists.
(January 29, 2017 at 6:35 pm)Godschild Wrote: What denomination did you belong to?
GC
Catholic but what I said applies across denominations.
You are very much mistaken, when I read your post I had an idea you were from a Catholic background. I'm not saying that's a bad thing I'm saying that because I come from a protestant background it was easy to recoqnize.
GC
God loves those who believe and those who do not and the same goes for me, you have no choice in this matter. That puts the matter of total free will to rest.
(January 29, 2017 at 5:10 pm)Redoubtable Wrote: There's a lot of debate nowadays between Christians and skeptics over whether faith is a good or rational basis for belief and it seems that generally speaking Christians today (more so than in the past) are so timid to the point of just wanting to have the foundation of faith tolerated as a basis for belief and not mocked.
To me the peculiar thing about this is that up until very recently Christianity was saturated in an arrogance that still exists, but is not nearly articulated as much as it used to be, and this arrogance is basically that it is not only reasonable to have faith in their religion, but that we have a moral obligation to have faith in their religion.
It would be one thing to say: "I know we can't really prove the truth of our religion and that it requires faith, but if you simply aren't convinced of Christianity, it won't be held against you, no harm no foul". In reality however the Christian message is essentially this: "You owe us your belief, you owe it to us to have faith in our religion in all of its aspects and obey it in every respect it demands obedience in; if you fail to fulfill this moral obligation you will suffer unimaginable horrors for all eternity."
Christians still believe this today but often try to camouflage this fundamental arrogance in Christianity by appealing to pluralistic ideals, saying you don't have to believe if you don't want to and can believe or disbelieve what you like (leaving out the part that God is apparently so offended by this unbelief that you will be tormented for eternity).
Coming to this realization was one of the biggest moments in my de-conversion process as I actually started getting quite angry at the thought that I was being needlessly controlled by a Church that impressed upon me from childhood the idea that I owed them everything. The onus was on me to give the Church my faith, and my obedience in all things they demanded, and to surrender my future and all it would entail, even to the extent of surrendering my own future children by handing them over to the rites and indoctrination of the Church, repeating the process over again in a new generation.
Ultimately, when one is trapped in such a web of religious arrogance, it is a revolutionary act simply to say: no, the onus is not on me to have faith in what you say and I don't owe you my belief. The onus is on you to provide reasons for belief that justify the extraordinary claims and demands your religion places on people.
Sorey sport that you church demanded soooo much faith.
Christ tell us we only need the faith of a mustard seed. If our 'religion' requires anything more than that, they are doing something wrong.
If you take the smallest amount of faith and place it in God it will yeild what it is you are looking for. However He is not going to meet you half way on this. You have to do things his way (That's the faith part/the only part) you have to do.
I started out nonchristian and simply and honestly wanted to know if there was a God. I read the bible and saw the promise God made (That He would show up if I simply Ask For and Sought the Holy Spirit and did not stop till I found Him.) It was a journey and what I found out was He was already here, I just did not know how to identify Him. Why? Because My idea of God and what/Who was staring me in the face were two different things.
If you want proof learn to seek God on His terms, and hold on to something.
I think they just enjoy playing with people's minds using bullshit they made up for a laugh. They are devil worshippers really.
