History in the OT

[chatpilot]

I disagree dagda,I can piece together a work of fiction based on these times and it does not make it true.Just because I mention a couple of cities and places that actually existed does not mean that it is historically correct.If I decide to use some characters that were actual persons of reknown also does not make my fictional work a reality.

If all historians thought like you dagda we would beleive every fairy tale invented by man!

[starbucks]

I find the last two posts slightly offencive to Celtic culture. First off, the Celts were unlitterate (not illiterate!) and yet can be classed as a 'Western' culture. Most of Northern and Western Europe (Celts, Viking, Saxon ect) worked there history around stories with extraordinary detail. You seem to have forgotten a large chunk of 'western' culture.
Secondly, the OT is intertwined with what may be hugly fictisious tales. This does not take away from its historical value. The Illiad was completly fantastic, and yet Troy existed. In the same way, the OT may not be strictly accurate but it does capture the mood and feel of an ancient people and a sprinkling (perhaps a torrent) of historic accuracy. If all historians thought like you Chatpilot, I am afraid histroy would be rather stale and useless.

Exactly!

There are cultures that were pretty much annihilated or forced to assimilate by their oppressors. To say that anything coming from their mouths is FALSE or just silly is insulting. And then to demand they back it up with tangible evidence like "written" records or witness accounts from a secondary source is just persecuting them all over again.

If we were to look at it from a micro level, can any one of us provide hardcore evidence of our own great-great-great-great-infinity-grandparents back to the 1st century? Many of us would not be able to recall the names, and/or accomplishments of our ancestors even to the 19th century unless we were privileged noblemen who could afford to hire a scribe to record all this stuff.

[dagda]

I agree completly,Starbucks.

' I disagree dagda,I can piece together a work of fiction based on these times and it does not make it true.Just because I mention a couple of cities and places that actually existed does not mean that it is historically correct.If I decide to use some characters that were actual persons of reknown also does not make my fictional work a reality.

If all historians thought like you dagda we would beleive every fairy tale invented by man! '

Actually, I think you will find that your fictisious story would have incredible historic value. Say yo write a spy novel based on the overthrow of Hussain in Iraq. The main character is Tom the CIA man (a fictional character) and most of the action takes place around Basra and Bagdad.
A historian in 1000 years would be able to take from this that, although the characters may be false that there may be some truth hidden away in the document.
After a long search the historian manages to take from your story that there was a war in Iraq with the goal of toppling a leader the coalition did not like, who may or may not have been called Hussain or have been a dictator. In this country is two cities called Bagdad and Basra and that there may be an organisation called the CIA and that the coalition won.

If we took your angle on history the spy novel would have been placed as purely fictional and all info on the 2nd Gulf War lost.

[Edwardo Piet]

It's good to reveal to people how most of the OT is immoral, but I also think we need to move on a bit too because that's already obvious to a lot of Christians. There are a lot of Christians who just follow the NT.

I think what would be interesting is finding and revealing some of the immoral stuff in the NT. I see less of this...but it isn't perfectly moral (especially the cruxificion). I'd like to see more criticism of the NT's morality.

[starbucks]

It's good to reveal to people how most of the OT is immoral, but I also think we need to move on a bit too because that's already obvious to a lot of Christians. There are a lot of Christians who just follow the NT.

I think what would be interesting is finding and revealing some of the immoral stuff in the NT. I see less of this...but it isn't perfectly moral (especially the cruxificion). I'd like to see more criticism of the NT's morality.

The immorality stated in the OT existed prior to God's first encounter with Abraham. Prostitution, slavery, polygamy, etc. was already in practice long before Abraham slept with Haggai and conceived Ishmael.

As far as cultural laws instructed to Moses from God (aka Mosaic Laws), before we criticize them we have to know more about how they came about and why. It works like any other modern-day government. Laws are drafted to apply to what is currently happening on a social and economic level - and also to hopefully start changing the mentality of what is to start happening forward on.

For example, IF you have citizens who are already involved in polygamous marriages prior to the new seat of government it's not so cut and dry to divorce them without considering the long-term consequences. You can make it illegal so that such marriages will have to dissolve but then you eventually have to deal with giving assistance to single mothers and children, etc.

Anyways, I could bring up more examples but I'm sure we get the gist.

[dagda]

'I see less of this...but it isn't perfectly moral (especially the cruxificion).'

I don't see what is immoral about the cruxifiction, well certianly not from the christian stand point, it was the Romans, if anyone, who were being immoral but that is hardly to do with critisisms of the NT. Now Paul was an ass...

[StewartP]

It's good to reveal to people how most of the OT is immoral, but I also think we need to move on a bit too because that's already obvious to a lot of Christians. There are a lot of Christians who just follow the NT.

I think what would be interesting is finding and revealing some of the immoral stuff in the NT. I see less of this...but it isn't perfectly moral (especially the cruxificion). I'd like to see more criticism of the NT's morality.

Jesus compared non-Jews to dogs and said he had only come to save Jews (Matthew 15, Mark 7) so clear example of racism

Jesus cursed the figtree when it was out of season (Mark 11:12) clear example of being a bad-tempere grumpy bastard

Jesus says you have to love him more than your family (Matthew 10:37) clear example of asking way too much of people

Jesus exorts people to cut off their limbs rather than let their limbs cause them to sin and thus damnation. (matthew 18:8) Well, it isn't our hands or feet that cause us to sin. clear example of crap hyperbole except that there are examples of deranged people doing just this.

Jesus holds up the entire OT and all it says, including the killing of babies and anything else that is crap in the OT
"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them." (Matthew 5:17)

Jesus sends evil spirits out of a man and into a herd of pigs. the pigs rush off a cliff into the sea and die. Tough shit for the owner of the pigs (Matthew 8:30-33)

Jesus tells a disciple in a most uncompassionate manner that he can't bury his parents (Matthew 8:21-22)

Jesus says he has come to cause destruction and strife, not peace, and to divide families (Matthew 10:34-36)


OK, so that's just SOME of the crap stuff Jesus said and did. Just off the top of my head. I haven't even started on the stuff the disciples and Paul got up to in Acts and some of Paul's hate filled stuff in his epistles.

[dagda]

'I haven't even started on the stuff the disciples and Paul got up to in Acts and some of Paul's hate filled stuff in his epistles.'

Paul was an ass.

[Dotard]

Paul was an ass.

And that would fit nicely in a Bibical story as we have mention of a talking ass elsewhere in the Bible.

And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? "And the LORD opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times? And Balaam said unto the ass..."
Balaam and his donkey have a nice little chat.

Apparently, they do this often, since Balaam doesn't seem the least bit surprised when his donkey starts talking to him.