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RE: Knowledge, belief, and honesty.
March 19, 2017 at 9:22 am
(March 19, 2017 at 9:14 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: (March 18, 2017 at 5:56 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I am saying we only honestly believe in things that are warranted.
Well that's simply false.
It seems to have some minor problems, such as the obvious fact that different people honestly believe contradictory things on a daily basis? Or are we going to go No True Scotsman and claim that everyone else doesn't *honestly* believe?
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Knowledge, belief, and honesty.
March 19, 2017 at 9:22 am
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2017 at 9:24 am by Edwardo Piet.)
(March 19, 2017 at 12:25 am)The Gentleman Bastard Wrote: So, if I honestly believe there are little green men on Mars fucking with our probes to hide their highly technological civilization would that be truth in your world view, Mystic?
Based on his definition yes. Well, one of his many definitions. He changes it every 5 seconds. Any time I call MK out on something he says that what he's really saying is something completely different. Still, it's just as nonsensical as the first thing... it's just a different point entirely. So then I pin that down and then he says what he's really saying is something ELSE nonsensical.
MK if you want to discuss something with someone... it's not going to work if every time someone responds you say you meant something completely different.
You say A and I say "well A makes no sense" and you say "I am saying B" and I say "no you aren't you are saying A. But anyways B makes no sense either." And then you say "I am saying C." 
(March 19, 2017 at 9:22 am)Alex K Wrote: (March 19, 2017 at 9:14 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Well that's simply false.
It seems to have some minor problems, such as the obvious fact that different people honestly believe contradictory things on a daily basis? Or are we going to go No True Scotsman and claim that everyone else doesn't *honestly* believe?
Well for starters "honest belief" is just a tautology, lol.
If you don't honestly believe something then you don't really believe it, in all honesty 
And my point is belief is obviously not knowledge because people can believe things that are untrue and unjustified.
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RE: Knowledge, belief, and honesty.
March 19, 2017 at 9:25 am
Thinking like that is a recipe for descending into madness, and our friend MK here seems to be on the verge of losing his mind. I'm just hoping he doesn't hurt himself or blow up something at this point.
The fool hath said in his heart, There is a God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
Psalm 14, KJV revised edition
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RE: Knowledge, belief, and honesty.
March 19, 2017 at 9:29 am
(March 19, 2017 at 6:41 am)Stimbo Wrote: (March 18, 2017 at 5:11 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: No wonder you're so confused.
What we honestly believe is merely what we honestly believe.
To know something we must not only honestly believe it but it must also be true, it must be justifiably true and we must not merely have the knowledge by accident (the Gettier problem).
Justified true belief that one is lucidly aware of=knowledge, IMO.
It would also be demonstrable, at least to a certain extent. I could say I believe Miss Anne Other loves me and I might be justified in that, but I couldn't say with any safety that I know it unless she gave me some indication that she does in fact love me. The interesting bit is she could be lying to me right down the line and my perception would still be justified.
You would be justified in thinking that you perceived what you thought you perceived. But that's the same thing as honest belief which is the same thing as belief. You would not be justified that it was true in reality unless you really had knowledge that she in fact did love you.
Of course if the evidence can't distinguish between her lying and not lying then it's not really a testable claim. There would have to be some way to know when she was and wasn't lying otherwise it's just guesswork and certainly not knowledge.
Like does she have any tells? Is she good at poker?
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RE: Knowledge, belief, and honesty.
March 19, 2017 at 9:41 am
(March 19, 2017 at 9:25 am)Alex K Wrote: Thinking like that is a recipe for descending into madness, and our friend MK here seems to be on the verge of losing his mind. I'm just hoping he doesn't hurt himself or blow up something at this point.
As romantic as he sounds in his posts, I don't think he will hurt others. But as far as hurting himself, lots of people besides Muslims think about doing that all the time. I suffer from depression myself. I certainly would hope he wouldn't hurt himself. But I do get tired of people in the west assuming everyone in the east will end up hurting others because we pick on their religion. MK most certainly does not strike me as one whom would get violent as an individual.
I fear our Christian right in the states more than I fear any migrant from the east.
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RE: Knowledge, belief, and honesty.
March 19, 2017 at 1:59 pm
(March 18, 2017 at 1:55 pm)MysticKnight Wrote: I would define knowledge to be what we honestly believe.
The reason I say that, is because, if we define knowledge as what we are justified or not, we may not be able to distinguish when we are justified and when we are not. What makes distinguish warranted justified belief from none-warranted unjustified belief, is simple, it's honesty. When we are honest to ourselves, we can distinguish between what we truly believe and what we don't. It's not about simply belief, but warranted belief, but to distinguished the warrant and non-warranted, is through honesty.
Knowledge is not a certainty. Certainty is when we are very strong at that perception with honesty and warranted belief.
Certainty is a level of knowledge. That itself has stages, and the more stronger the power of reason and sight of the heart is, the more we will be certain.
When one honestly assess what what truly believes, that is knowledge.
Now when I looked up the definition of knowledge it did say one possible interpretation was "justified belief" and I think that is the definition you have mangled here. A justified belief would be one with evidence, I know my wife loves me, would be a justified belief in her love based on her actions and words, she could however be faking it but I would still be justified in my belief. So I could say "I know she loves me"
You can fix ignorance, you can't fix stupid.
Tinkety Tonk and down with the Nazis.
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RE: Knowledge, belief, and honesty.
March 19, 2017 at 4:03 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2017 at 4:06 pm by WinterHold.)
(March 19, 2017 at 9:41 am)Brian37 Wrote: (March 19, 2017 at 9:25 am)Alex K Wrote: Thinking like that is a recipe for descending into madness, and our friend MK here seems to be on the verge of losing his mind. I'm just hoping he doesn't hurt himself or blow up something at this point.
As romantic as he sounds in his posts, I don't think he will hurt others. But as far as hurting himself, lots of people besides Muslims think about doing that all the time. I suffer from depression myself. I certainly would hope he wouldn't hurt himself. But I do get tired of people in the west assuming everyone in the east will end up hurting others because we pick on their religion. MK most certainly does not strike me as one whom would get violent as an individual.
I fear our Christian right in the states more than I fear any migrant from the east.
I am obligated to clarify what the religion of Mystic says:
Warning: graphics and blood.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-16047713
A "good Shiite believer" is ready to protect his/her faith by lying about it, and lying to protect the faith is considered to be a "worship to God":
Quote:"He who conceals his religion has saved it, and he who makes it public has destroyed it."
"A believer who does not practice Taqiyya is like a body without a head." (Tafseer al-Askari)
"Mix with them (i.e. non-Shia) externally, but oppose them internally." (Al-Kafi vol.9 p.116)
"Taqiyya is necessary and the one who abandons it is excluded from the religion (of the Shia)." (Ehsan-ul-Fatawa Fi Shaeah-e-Aqa'id, p. 26)
"The most beloved thing on the surface of Earth is Taqiyya." (Usul Kafi, Part 2. Kitab Imaan wal Kufr, Bab Taqiyyah, Line 12, Riwayah 4, page 217, New Iranian Edition)
"The Imam has mentioned that Taqiyya is the coolness of his eyes." (Usul Kafi, Part 2, Kitab Imaan wal Kufr, line1, Riwayah 14, page 217, new Iranian Edition].
https://www.al-islam.org/shiite-encyclop...ion-part-3
The Middle East is torn by the Sunni hammer and the Shiite sickle. If somebody believes in Taqya and also slashes his youth, while the other wears suicide belts and blow mosques, how is peace ever going to happen?
Shiites have been going with this nonsense for 1400 years. Slashing children and then lie about it. Lie lie lie lie, Sunnies on the other hand (like Salafies) go blow them up and behead a couple of thousand civilians on the road.
So I'm sorry. But the Shiite religion is something nasty. Children should never get slashed each year for God.
Humans should never lie to each other.
Real decent people always tell the truth.
How do I trust you, Mystic?
As a Shiite, Taqyia is a faith you believe in.
The east is ...a big torture room Brian?
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RE: Knowledge, belief, and honesty.
March 19, 2017 at 4:09 pm
(March 19, 2017 at 4:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The east is ...a big torture room Brian?
I bet you never been married.... twice.
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RE: Knowledge, belief, and honesty.
March 19, 2017 at 5:52 pm
(March 19, 2017 at 4:09 pm)LastPoet Wrote: (March 19, 2017 at 4:03 pm)AtlasS33 Wrote: The east is ...a big torture room Brian?
I bet you never been married.... twice.
I'm sorry..
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RE: Knowledge, belief, and honesty.
March 19, 2017 at 6:49 pm
(This post was last modified: March 19, 2017 at 6:52 pm by Mr Greene.)
Well something is obviously driving him to spam the forums. Alas what that is, is somewhat opaque at this point.
The symptoms/outlet is this quasi-religious stream of thought but the thoughts themselves are lost amidst MKs apparent inability to express himself in a comprehensible manner. So where do we go from here?
Anyone think he's questioning his beliefs with the tsunami of attempted justifications and arguments in favour of belief?
He isn't attempting to convince us, but himself?
Quote:I don't understand why you'd come to a discussion forum, and then proceed to reap from visibility any voice that disagrees with you. If you're going to do that, why not just sit in front of a mirror and pat yourself on the back continuously?
- Esquilax
Evolution - Adapt or be eaten.
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