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Current time: 24th June 2017, 23:40

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To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
RE: To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
(24th March 2017, 10:34)MysticKnight Wrote: We have traits that cannot be separated from judgement, in fact, the whole of we are, is subject to judgement.

Bald assertion with no evidence. Next.
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RE: To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
(24th March 2017, 10:34)Jesster Wrote:
(24th March 2017, 10:34)MysticKnight Wrote: We have traits that cannot be separated from judgement, in fact, the whole of we are, is subject to judgement.

Bald assertion with no evidence. Next.
Your assertion is what is without evidence. I am simply pointing to something every human experiences and knows about others and themselves.

Every argument will come down to irreducible axioms. That is why Quran despite giving many clear arguments and proofs, says at the end, it's but a reminder.

It relies on us being reminded or axioms it uses won't be of avail.

You may have forgotten that you and judgement are interlinked, but, when you are reminded, then it's irrational to disconnect the interlinked nature of the two.
Then God sent His Messengers ...(and) to unveil the treasures (the hiddens) of intellects (Aql)
Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 1

Whoever knows himself, knows his lord.
Misbah al-Shariah
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RE: To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
(24th March 2017, 10:38)MysticKnight Wrote: Your assertion is what is without evidence.

"No U" doesn't pass as an argument in too many places. You made the assertion. Back that shit up or I won't even consider it.

(24th March 2017, 10:38)MysticKnight Wrote: I am simply pointing to something every human experiences and knows about others and themselves.

False. I've never experienced your drug-induced fever dreams you're trying to convince me of here.

(24th March 2017, 10:38)MysticKnight Wrote: Every argument will come down to irreducible axioms. That is why Quran despite giving many clear arguments and proofs, says at the end, it's but a reminder.

It relies on us being reminded or axioms it uses won't be of avail.

You may have forgotten that you and judgement are interlinked, but, when you are reminded, then it's irrational to disconnect the interlinked nature of the two.

You're just repeating your bald assertion. Next.
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RE: To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
(24th March 2017, 10:28)MysticKnight Wrote: My argument is that what we love cannot be just the mask that others put or what we or others tell ourselves we are.
Yes it can.

Quote: It has to be something real.
No it doesn't.

Quote:And that who we are and judgment are interlinked.

Irrelevant.

Quote:Love depends on judgment.

Nope.

Quote:Take away REAL you, and what is love to love?

I am real me. Yes I have to exist to love. What is your point?

Quote:The subjective you created by a brain that has no authority on who you truly are, neither to judge, neither to order you?

Anyone who knows me well is an authority on who I am.

Quote:Are in love with real "who" of people, even though, we may not know it fully or even have false conceptions of them, or are win love with simply with subjective judgement that has no objective basis?

What does that even mean?

And love objectively exists as a subjective emotion in the brains of subjects. Love is just brain chemistry and the experience of those chemicals is experienced subjectively because ALL experience is subjective... but although the brain chemicals that we call "love" are EXPERIENCED subjectively those brain chemicals THEMSELVES exist objectively just as all subjects are also objects (just not all objects are subjects (like all dogs are animals but not all animals are dogs)).

Quote:Love as I said many times, proves, we know we have exact value. It's our most foundational essence to who we are, and what we know.

Love doesn't prove anything. It's just an emotion like any other and so what if we value it? We value other emotions too. That proves nothing.

It's not our foundational essence. We don't have a foundational essence.
"  ...I... I-I-I-I-- I made it... and it's fucking beautiful !!! "
"  Why sound so surprised ?   ..  You've got a brilliant mind."
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RE: To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
Jesster, I am going to talk about your value to animals, insects, and humans. By this, my attempt will be simply to show you, you believe judgement and who you are are interlinked.

I said this so you can be prepared and think about the subject before I make my case.  I also wanted to say this so you don't end up saying things like there is no difference in value of an Ant and a human or anything like that.

God give us all patience and love towards what is exalted and beautiful, mainly his chosen ones, and make us love by that what is absolutely perfect (The one true God).
Then God sent His Messengers ...(and) to unveil the treasures (the hiddens) of intellects (Aql)
Nahjul Balagha, Sermon 1

Whoever knows himself, knows his lord.
Misbah al-Shariah
Reply
RE: To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
(24th March 2017, 10:47)MysticKnight Wrote: Jesster, I am going to talk about your value to animals, insects, and humans. By this, my attempt will be simply to show you, you believe judgement and who you are are interlinked.

I said this so you can be prepared and think about the subject before I make my case.  I also wanted to say this so you don't end up saying things like there is no difference in value of an Ant and a human or anything like that.

Objectively, there is no difference in "value" between a human and an ant, so I damn well will say things like that. Value is a subjective assessment. It depends on the individual making the judgement. I personally put more value into humans, but that's not necessarily true universally. An ant likely values ants more than it values humans.

(24th March 2017, 10:47)MysticKnight Wrote: God give us all patience and love towards what is exalted and beautiful, mainly his chosen ones, and make us love by that what is absolutely perfect (The one true God).

Bald assertion. Next.
Reply
RE: To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
(24th March 2017, 10:28)MysticKnight Wrote:
(24th March 2017, 10:23)Jörmungandr Wrote: Love and value are not invalidated by subjectivity.  You're essentially arguing that these phenomenon need to be transcendent to be real, and that they can only be transcendent if there is an eternal standard in God.  This is an argument from ignorance; you can't see how these phenomenon can be transcendent without God, therefore God.  Well that's a fallacious argument.  And it's easily dismissed on that basis.

My argument is that what we love cannot be just the mask that others put or what we or others tell ourselves we are. It has to be something real.

Your vision of what it means for something to be real is of no consequence. You use the word 'real' like people proclaiming NDEs are real do, it is a vision clouded by a lack of awareness of its own subjective interpretation of what it means for something to be 'real'. Why does it have to be 'real' in the sense in which you mean it's real? It doesn't have to be. There are other solutions to the puzzle that disturbs you, but you won't acknowledge them. That is a stubborness on your part, nothing more. Your ignorance and delusion do not make a positive contribution to the subject. You are possessed by 'truths' that only you can see. That is the hallmark of delusion. Regardless, nothing you have said contravenes my point that you are making an argument from ignorance, and your conclusions can thus be dismissed.

(24th March 2017, 10:28)MysticKnight Wrote: And that who we are and judgment are interlinked. Love depends on judgment. Take away REAL you, and what is love to love?

The subjective you created by a brain that has no authority on who you truly are, neither to judge, neither to order you!

More appeal to consequences.

(24th March 2017, 10:28)MysticKnight Wrote: Are we in love with real "who" of people, even though, we may not know it fully or even have false conceptions of them, or are win love with simply with the subjective judgment that has no objective basis?

The phenomena of trust invalidates your speculations. It is the facing of doubt in our judgement of who the other is. The phenomena of trust makes plain that our judgements are uncertain and based in subjectivity.

(24th March 2017, 10:28)MysticKnight Wrote: Love as I said many times, proves, we know we have exact value. It's our most foundational essence to who we are, and what we know.

You keep asserting things that you believe but do not 'know'. This is dishonest and a sign of the weakness of your vision.
[Image: mtwepw.jpg]
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RE: To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
(24th March 2017, 10:07)MysticKnight Wrote: Who sees you as you truly are, yourself or God?

Nobody at all.  We are psychologically and physiologically complex entities in a state of constant change.  I believe that it is impossible to know with certainty our alleged "true selves," and an utter waste of time because in the very next instant we change into something else.

I have no problem whatsoever with this scenario.  I really do not fucking care who sees the "true me" because their perceptions have no place in my life.

In fact, I refuse to have anything to do with anyone who asserts pig crap like "I know you better than you know yourself."  Those are words commonly spoken by abusers who wish to assert power over other people, and after experiencing that firsthand I would prefer to be alone than to go through that again.
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RE: To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
(24th March 2017, 10:07)MysticKnight Wrote:
(23rd March 2017, 09:58)Stimbo Wrote: Then demonstrating it ought to be trivially simple.

There is a true you. Done.

You're an ass. If there are holes in your evidence, the honest thing to do is acknowledge them. This response is asinine, but is wholly consistent with the lack of evidence for your claims.
[Image: mtwepw.jpg]
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RE: To explain why we can define God to affirm his existence!
(24th March 2017, 10:47)MysticKnight Wrote: God give us all patience and love towards what is exalted and beautiful, mainly his chosen ones, and make us love by that what is absolutely perfect (The one true God).

No he doesn't.

Next.

(24th March 2017, 10:20)MysticKnight Wrote: Then there is no real you!!

MysticKnight Wrote:There is a true you. Done.

Fail.

I don't know how you expect us to agree with you when you're not even agreeing with yourself here.

So much doublethink. Facepalm.

MK... Personally I think there is a real me. I am the real me. There are also many imaginary mes. One of them being in your head, others being in the heads of other people who have met me online or off. And one of them even being in my head... It's called a self-concept.

But the point is... YOU HAVE NO COHERENT POINT.

#clearly
"  ...I... I-I-I-I-- I made it... and it's fucking beautiful !!! "
"  Why sound so surprised ?   ..  You've got a brilliant mind."
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