General statement to theists who read this.

[Jeanne]

Hi Brian.

I am fully aware that your post was to all believers, which is why I wrote of "deity beliefs" but it is the Christians in this country who are always hoping that my "seeking" will let them gain another soul for Jesus.

And...good grief, it is not possible to love everyone, but we can love individual believers even though we hate their belief system.

Let us face this fact; many human beings need to have an authority figure for comfort and guidance. Most of them have been told as children that they cannot choose for themselves to be good and to be strong, but must rely upon the authority figure, which is God, who is always right or is interpreted to be always right. And...who wants to be on the side that is wrong?

It's all well and good until somebody gets an eye poked out... And...there we have the problem with deity belief and the religion that supports it.

-Jeanne

[Brian37]

Hi Brian.

I am fully aware that your post was to all believers, which is why I wrote of "deity beliefs" but it is the Christians in this country who are always hoping that my "seeking" will let them gain another soul for Jesus.

And...good grief, it is not possible to love everyone, but we can love individual believers even though we hate their belief system.

Let us face this fact; many human beings need to have an authority figure for comfort and guidance.  Most of them have been told as children that they cannot choose for themselves to be good and to be strong, but must rely upon the authority figure, which is God, who is always right or is interpreted to be always right.  And...who wants to be on the side that is wrong?  

It's all well and good until somebody gets an eye poked out...    And...there we have the problem with deity belief and the religion that supports it.

-Jeanne

No we need social order, thus we create that through artificial labels such as religion, nations, political and economic ideologies. None of those artificial labels change that we are still the same species. 

We need order, but we don't need to hide behind the ideas started in the days of kings, and both polytheists and monotheists even in Asia and India in antiquity mistook fortune as coming from a divine world. 

I value human rights not authoritarianism. I value laws only through consent and review, not old concepts of family rule which is where all religions started out as as concepts. 

I DO love my species ability to be compassionate, but I don't have to love the claim that it comes from a religion, because evolution proves that is not the case. And where the hell in my OP did I ever imply one could force religion out of existence? Just because humans base their social orders on placebos that can lead to safety in numbers does not make that group right about everything, nor does it change we are still the same species, nor does it change that life is far older than our species.

Show me a church or mosque or synagogue or Buddhist or Hindu temple built by cockroaches? Show me where the dinosaurs 65 million years ago built pyramids in Egypt or temples to Roman gods? Show me evidence of the communism or socialism of the water bear? 

I am for human rights but that does not mean I need to stay quiet and never call out bad claims. I do love my species capability of compassion and empathy, but I am NOT required to love every single individual. I will always value non violence and I do not value revenge, only containment. But I do not owe claims with no evidence any special treatment outside the legal right to make the claim. I still have the right to question and even blaspheme and ridicule that claim.

One is the issue of legal rights and common law, and that I DO VALUE. But claims as claims don't deserve taboos never to be challenged. 

Humans have ideas, they group and defend those ideas, no you cannot stop that part. But en mass those ideas DO compete for political attention nationally and globally, and those groups have weapons, and especially today nukes that could knock us back into the stone age or worse, make us go extinct. So if your attitude is "some people need it" so what, what one feels they need does not give that group the right to hold the entire planet hostage and put our species at threat, and the only way to prevent that is to question those claims. Not to get rid of any group, but merely to prevent a disaster that would hurt our entire planet.

I could care less about anybody's utopia, or how they think their clubs help them, if you cannot question it, or demand nobody question it, that is not valuing human rights nor does it promote "love" of human rights. It promotes authoritarianism. No, if you want to live under authority, try Saudi Arabia or North Korea. 

The authority we have in the west is through the consent of the voter, not the consent of a majority religion. Not the consent of a majority party. But through protection of pluralism through EQUALITY and oversight because of the ability of society to question. 

"Cant we all just get along" is your argument, I fail to see what makes you think I am trying to argue otherwise. Yes we can and should get along, but no, not at the cost of fearing each other because someone might get offended. I will not fear my neighbor until they give me something to fear as an individual, but that does not entitle them to be scrutiny free when they make a claim on any subject.

[Jeanne]

Hi Brian.

I do not disagree with you. I am not trying to argue otherwise.

Sorry that I included a general reply in the one that I addressed to you. I will be more careful next post.

-Jeanne

[Brian37]

Hi Brian.

I do not disagree with you.  I am not trying to argue otherwise.

Sorry that I included a general reply in the one that I addressed to you.  I will be more careful next post.

-Jeanne

"More careful"? Huh, no, say what you want to say. I am not a teacher or master or someone to be "careful" with. You say what you want in response, and I respond how I see fit. If I agree with you, I will. It isn't a competition and it isn't a classroom. 

My only point in my response is even when atheist say "lets all love each other". No, I hate general statements like that. It is loaded and while it sounds nice, no, we should not love violence or bad claims that lead to bad acts. I can only love my species ability to avoid those things, but I have no obligation to love someone who might literally physically harm me or take my rights way.

I'd only say that in response to those who might harm me, I am no fan of revenge I think it solves nothing. But even with that I am under no obligation to love the person or people who harm me. 

I don't think we are really disagreeing that much. I simply get a lip twitch when I hear good intent with loaded general phrases. 

I do love my species ability to be compassionate and have empathy for others, but not every individual out of our seven billion does display that. Some individuals deluded by religion and or politics and or greed can be quite nasty and cruel to others and that is the part of my species I don't love.

[Jeanne]

Hi Brian.

You misread my post; I will be more careful in how I reply to more than just one person, as I included a general reply to some other posts in the one to you. I don't give a fig for what others think of me or my opinions.

And, dear gawd, you do realize that I merely turned the old canard around when I said we can love the theist while hating the theism, don't you? You didn't think I had my tongue firmly in my cheek?

But..honestly, a realist would understand that humans need what they need to get through life and not get all het-up over compassion. I have been there and did not want that in my life ever again.

Religion is poison to human beings, but if some prefer to keep their humanity numbed with poison, who am I to demand that they cannot?

I think that we do not disagree. We just express ourselves differently and that is because we have had different experiences.

I am looking forward to future discussions.

-Jeanne

[Brian37]

Hi Brian.

You misread my post; I will be more careful in how I reply to more than just one person, as I included a general reply to some other posts in the one to you.  I don't give a fig for what others think of me or my opinions.

And, dear gawd, you do realize that I merely turned the old canard around when I said we can love the theist while hating the theism, don't you?  You didn't think I had my tongue firmly in my cheek?  

But..honestly, a realist would understand that humans need what they need to get through life and not get all het-up over compassion.  I have been there and did not want that in my life ever again.

Religion is poison to human beings, but if some prefer to keep their humanity numbed with poison, who am I to demand that they cannot?  

I think that we do not disagree.  We just express ourselves differently and that is because we have had different experiences.

I am looking forward to future discussions.

-Jeanne

Again, we are NOT in disagreement. Nowhere did I demand a thing. I am saying that while ALL humans have the right to make whatever claim they want, they also cannot demand we don't respond to their claims.

If someone wants to make the claim "The New England Patriots beat the Chicago Cubs in the Stanley Cup", I wont pass laws saying they cant claim it. But I will when I hear it respond with  "bullshit".

There is a huge difference between human rights, which everyone SHOULD protect, and the separate issue of the ability to demonstrate what you claim is factual. I am under no obligation to buy what someone sells and never respond to it just because they like it. I am only obligated to allow them to make the attempt. I am still allowed to respond.

[Jeanne]

Don't you just hate it when you realize a mistake and go to edit it and find that a reply has been made and the mistake will now live forever? Oh well.

Brian, I agree that we are not in disagreement.

-Jeanne

[AceBoogie]

The problem is many theists unwillingness to compromise.

Maybe we don't make it clear how much we compromise with them. Theists seem to be completely unwilling to agree with us on even the most basic of concepts... i.e. the definition of atheism. They are as convinced that we're godless sinners as we are that their stories and fairy tales simply don't make sense. I feel like things are getting better as times go on, but at the end of the day your average theist would rather avoid the argument than actually sit down and discuss the facts. These types aren't much better than those that choose to join this forum to preach to us about how god is within us all and that we need to "accept reality" and "wake up."

A denial of basic science, logic and reason is not something I'm willing to compromise with. And while I hope theists will treat me as an individual, as you say, I doubt many of them will. They seem to fail to understand that we are all people who have come to, basically, the same conclusion (at least about god, or a lack thereof) using our own rationale and logic. Unlike many theists who simply accept the claims made by the Bible because they were taught to as children... they treat as us if we operate by the same hive minded mentality that many Christians, Muslims and Jews do... and that is simply not true.

It's hard for me to take any theist seriously when they all use the same tired, old arguments purported by the same apologists that have been around for years and years now. The thing is, these stories, for whatever reason, make sense to the people who call themselves Christians. So maybe it is in our best interest to try and understand that the best we can, but that doesn't mean we should concede to anything that doesn't stand up to the scientific method, since we've established that so far, that's the most important tool we have for understanding the world around us.

There is a divide here and no one is really willing to take that first step because I'm not sure that any of us realize what taking that first step entails.

edit: To theists who read this post

Please understand that I'm sure there are plenty of atheists who truly are uninformed, unintelligent people. Maybe there are plenty of people who reject god as a way of rebellion against their parents, their family or society in general. But I would argue that most of us have each come to understand, through careful study and self examination, that we simply don't buy into your story. We didn't all get together and decide to "fight religion" or something. We all came to the same conclusion as individuals, which, quite honestly, makes our position a bit more believable, in my opinion. Most of us have read your Bible, have listened to your stories and have considered your side... and all we're saying is, "Yea, that doesn't make any sense to us."

Until any of you theists out there are willing to compromise a bit, none of this is ever going anywhere.

[Jeanne]

Hello Ace.

You explained that well.

I think, too, that like many aspects of life, understanding can only come from prolonged companionship...that is not the word I am looking for...among those who are different from ourselves. Still...the believer assumes that they have the edge over the non-believer, as they take direction from The Higher Authority and we merely from our own brain's reasoning ability. That "fact" will never change, which is why atheists are continually witnessed to.

-Jeanne

[Brian37]

The problem is many theists unwillingness to compromise.

Maybe we don't make it clear how much we compromise with them. Theists seem to be completely unwilling to agree with us on even the most basic of concepts... i.e. the definition of atheism. They are as convinced that we're godless sinners as we are that their stories and fairy tales simply don't make sense. I feel like things are getting better as times go on, but at the end of the day your average theist would rather avoid the argument than actually sit down and discuss the facts. These types aren't much better than those that choose to join this forum to preach to us about how god is within us all and that we need to "accept reality" and "wake up."

A denial of basic science, logic and reason is not something I'm willing to compromise with. And while I hope theists will treat me as an individual, as you say, I doubt many of them will. They seem to fail to understand that we are all people who have come to, basically, the same conclusion (at least about god, or a lack thereof) using our own rationale and logic. Unlike many theists who simply accept the claims made by the Bible because they were taught to as children... they treat as us if we operate by the same hive minded mentality that many Christians, Muslims and Jews do... and that is simply not true.

It's hard for me to take any theist seriously when they all use the same tired, old arguments purported by the same apologists that have been around for years and years now. The thing is, these stories, for whatever reason, make sense to the people who call themselves Christians. So maybe it is in our best interest to try and understand that the best we can, but that doesn't mean we should concede to anything that doesn't stand up to the scientific method, since we've established that so far, that's the most important tool we have for understanding the world around us.

There is a divide here and no one is really willing to take that first step because I'm not sure that any of us realize what taking that first step entails.

edit: To theists who read this post

Please understand that I'm sure there are plenty of atheists who truly are uninformed, unintelligent people. Maybe there are plenty of people who reject god as a way of rebellion against their parents, their family or society in general. But I would argue that most of us have each come to understand, through careful study and self examination, that we simply don't buy into your story. We didn't all get together and decide to "fight religion" or something. We all came to the same conclusion as individuals, which, quite honestly, makes our position a bit more believable, in my opinion. Most of us have read your Bible, have listened to your stories and have considered your side... and all we're saying is, "Yea, that doesn't make any sense to us."

Until any of you theists out there are willing to compromise a bit, none of this is ever going anywhere.

"atheist" means "off", nothing more. Outside that we don't agree on all things all the time. And even we define ourselves with sub set words like "Freethinker" "Humanist" and "Brites". Nonsense to me. Those are also attempts to define oneself as having a set of special views. Our species ability to be cruel or compassionate is in our evolution, not the labels we assign ourselves. Not even the word "atheist" has any magic power to make an individual only do good or only do bad. 

Our species has a horrible tendency to use "otherism" to justify the stigmatizing of those outside our social norms. Theism teaches tribalism and while it does create groups which creates social order and cooperation, it far too often more than not comes at the expense of pitting one group against another. 

I don't expect a utopia where theism will suddenly grow up. I also dont ever see a perfect atheist world either. But theism only deserves legal protection because humans deserve rights. The claims they make however, should never get blind protection never to be questioned.