NDE occurs while the body is still alive so cannot be used as evidence of consciousness surviving death. The clue is in the title : it is called Near Death Experience not Death Experience
Evidence of post death consciousness would have to be evidence as defined by the scientific method. That is something which is capable of observation by multiple observers [ so as to
eliminate bias ] and which can also be observed or replicated multiple times. And subject to potential falsification and peer review by professional scientists who specialise in a particular
field. Because that is what evidence actually is. It is not something that conveniently fits in with ones world view or belief system. This is not evidence but confirmation bias and the two
are not the same. And using the definition of evidence as defined by the scientific method there is none whatsoever that show that consciousness survives death [ permanent death and
not the so called death of NDE ] Because consciousness is a function of the brain and so when the brain dies [ permanent death ] it ceases to exist too as it cannot function without one

(April 2, 2017 at 7:33 pm)Little Rik Wrote:

(April 2, 2017 at 11:06 am)Jörmungandr Wrote: I've posted the evidence several times, and you've denied it, but not explained why it's not evidence.  The real reason is because you can't explain the evidence.

Your evidence!




Let us see this evidence yog.

I quote here from The Case Against Immortality, by Keith Augustine.

(F1) The evolution of species demonstrates that development of the brain obtains a corresponding mental development.
“First, phylogenetic evidence refers to the evolutionary relationship between the complexity of the brain and a species’ cognitive traits (Beyerstein 45). Corliss Lamont sums up this evidence: “We find that the greater the size of the brain and its cerebral cortex in relation to the animal body and the greater their complexity, the higher and more versatile the form of life” (Lamont 63).”

(F2) The same principle is demonstrated by brain growth in individual organisms.
“Secondly, the developmental evidence for mind-brain dependence is that mental abilities emerge with the development of the brain; failure in brain development prevents mental development (Beyerstein 45).

(F3) Brain damage destroys mental capacities.
“Third, clinical evidence consists of cases of brain damage that result from accidents, toxins, diseases, and malnutrition that often result in irreversible losses of mental functioning (45). If the mind could exist independently of the brain, why couldn’t the mind compensate for lost faculties when brain cells die after brain damage? (46).”

(F4) Experiments and measurements on the brain (EEG, stimulation of various areas) indicate a correspondence between brain activity and mental activity.
“Fourth, the strongest empirical evidence for mind-brain dependence is derived from experiments in neuroscience. Mental states are correlated with brain states; electrical or chemical stimulation of the human brain invokes perceptions, memories, desires, and other mental states (45).”

(F5) The effects of drugs show correspondence between brain activity and mental activity.
“Finally, the experiential evidence for mind-brain dependence consists of the effects of several different types of drugs which predictably affect mental states (45).”

http://www.strongatheism.net/library/ath...ind_brain/



And this garbage suppose to be evidence?

For Christ's sake yog you must be dreaming.  

But let us see what this guy say........
First he say.............“We find that the greater the size of the brain and its cerebral cortex in relation to the animal body and the greater their complexity, the higher and more versatile the form of life”........so far so good but this prove nothing whether the consciousness is or is not a product of the brain.

After he goes........the developmental evidence for mind-brain dependence is that mental abilities emerge with the development of the brain; failure in brain development prevents mental development........here the guy guess and guess.
In fact is the other way around.
It is the consciousness mind that determine brain development.

Again he goes........ Brain damage destroys mental capacities.
“Third, clinical evidence consists of cases of brain damage that result from accidents, toxins, diseases, and malnutrition that often result in irreversible losses of mental functioning (45). If the mind could exist independently of the brain, why couldn’t the mind compensate for lost faculties when brain cells die after brain damage? ........

Here the guy get lost in his guesses.
It is obvious that if you have an accident both brain and mind suffer.
The consciousness mind is stuck inside body-brain.
She can not leave her body-mind until death occur therefore she doesn't have any choice but suffer.
The same occur to you or me  when we have an accident.
We are stuck inside your car so if the car get smashed we also get injured.
Here the guy think that if the mind is independent to the brain such a mind should be able to compensate
for lost faculties.
How stupid is he.    
He doesn't realize that the separation occur ONLY when the body-brain die not before.
Before the consciousness is stuck inside the brain and in this situation she got to suffer and suffer.


And more..........Experiments and measurements on the brain (EEG, stimulation of various areas) indicate a correspondence between brain activity and mental activity.
“Fourth, the strongest empirical evidence for mind-brain dependence is derived from experiments in neuroscience. Mental states are correlated with brain states; electrical or chemical stimulation of the human brain invokes perceptions, memories, desires, and other mental states (45).”.....

This is pretty obvious as the consciousness mind is stuck inside the brain.


And last...........The effects of drugs show correspondence between brain activity and mental activity.
“Finally, the experiential evidence for mind-brain dependence consists of the effects of several different types of drugs which predictably affect mental states.........


Nothing new in here.
Drugs force a chemical reaction in the brain and when the brain is affected also the consciousness is forced to put up with the crap and suffer.
Suffer and forced to open up creating a sense of temporary bliss at the expenses of course of damages
all over body-brain.

In other words this study not only show nothing but also bring a lot of guesses that are wrong.

Sorry dear but you failed once again.  

No evidence of whatsoever.
Nothing.
Nil.
Zero.

---

(April 3, 2017 at 12:45 am)surreptitious57 Wrote: NDE occurs while the body is still alive so cannot be used as evidence of consciousness surviving death. The clue is in the title : it is called Near Death Experience not Death Experience
Evidence of post death consciousness would have to be evidence as defined by the scientific method. That is something which is capable of observation by multiple observers [ so as to
eliminate bias ] and which can also be observed or replicated multiple times. And subject to potential falsification and peer review by professional scientists who specialise in a particular
field. Because that is what evidence actually is. It is not something that conveniently fits in with ones world view or belief system. This is not evidence but confirmation bias and the two
are not the same. And using the definition of evidence as defined by the scientific method there is none whatsoever that show that consciousness survives death [ permanent death and
not the so called death of NDE ] Because consciousness is a function of the brain and so when the brain dies [ permanent death ] it ceases to exist too as it cannot function without one

So you reckon that when your car goes to the dogs as a wreck you also stay inside the wreck in the scrap yard?

I guess you never thought about that, did you?
But don't you worry mate.
LR is here to help you to understand that the consciousness is immortal and never end up in the scrap yard.

(April 3, 2017 at 9:14 am)Little Rik Wrote: But let us see what this guy say........
First he say.............“We find that the greater the size of the brain and its cerebral cortex in relation to the animal body and the greater their complexity, the higher and more versatile the form of life”........so far so good but this prove nothing whether the consciousness is or is not a product of the brain.

The point he is making is that the larger the repertoire of mental behaviors, the larger the brain and cerebral cortex. If these conscious behaviors were only dependent upon a disembodied consciousness, there would be no reason for the greater brain development, as according to your view, the brain isn't responsible for the complexity of your behavior. It's evidence because it is consistent with these conscious behaviors being a function of the brain. It is inconsistent with your notion that the consciousness is separate from the brain.

(April 3, 2017 at 9:14 am)Little Rik Wrote: After he goes........the developmental evidence for mind-brain dependence is that mental abilities emerge with the development of the brain; failure in brain development prevents mental development........here the guy guess and guess.
In fact is the other way around.
It is the consciousness mind that determine brain development.

Whenever you don't like a piece of evidence, you characterize it as a guess. This is nothing but an emotional response to something you don't like, like saying, "Boo evidence!" It's a transparent dodge to avoid answering the evidence. In this case, the fact that failure in brain development results in failure of mental development is well documented. It's not a guess. What isn't documented is your assertion that the conscious mind determine brain development. Beyond being a bare assertion, it makes no sense of the clinical data. Do you have any evidence to support this?

(April 3, 2017 at 9:14 am)Little Rik Wrote: Again he goes........ Brain damage destroys mental capacities.
“Third, clinical evidence consists of cases of brain damage that result from accidents, toxins, diseases, and malnutrition that often result in irreversible losses of mental functioning (45). If the mind could exist independently of the brain, why couldn’t the mind compensate for lost faculties when brain cells die after brain damage? ........

Here the guy get lost in his guesses.
It is obvious that if you have an accident both brain and mind suffer.
The consciousness mind is stuck inside body-brain.
She can not leave her body-mind until death occur therefore she doesn't have any choice but suffer.
The same occur to you or me  when we have an accident.
We are stuck inside your car so if the car get smashed we also get injured.
Here the guy think that if the mind is independent to the brain such a mind should be able to compensate
for lost faculties.
How stupid is he.    
He doesn't realize that the separation occur ONLY when the body-brain die not before.
Before the consciousness is stuck inside the brain and in this situation she got to suffer and suffer.

Speaking of guesses, here you repeatedly emphasize that consciousness does not act independent of the brain. That separation only occurs at death. Since nobody has yet to come back from being dead, and the behavior of the combined consciousness-brain is indivisible, I'm wondering how you know that you have two entities, consciousness-brain, instead of just one, the brain. Your answer is that NDEs prove that the consciousness is separate from the brain, but if anything is a guess, that is. You draw your conclusions about NDEs based on how well you can make it fit your dogma, not based upon anything that you truly know. NDEs aside, here you are admitting that consciousness-brain act as one, so there's no reason to speculate that they are separate and independent. The law of parsimony indicates that the simplest solution is likely correct. You add an independent consciousness based upon dogma and uncertain evidence from NDEs. Whereas it is clear that if you lack parts of the brain, you lack certain abilities to think, it's not clear that NDEs can't occur in the brain after loss of blood flow to the brain. So the balance lies with the connection which is certain, reinforced by parsimony: there is no separate consciousness aside from the brain.

(April 3, 2017 at 9:14 am)Little Rik Wrote: And more..........Experiments and measurements on the brain (EEG, stimulation of various areas) indicate a correspondence between brain activity and mental activity.
“Fourth, the strongest empirical evidence for mind-brain dependence is derived from experiments in neuroscience. Mental states are correlated with brain states; electrical or chemical stimulation of the human brain invokes perceptions, memories, desires, and other mental states (45).”.....

This is pretty obvious as the consciousness mind is stuck inside the brain.

Oh? How does stimulation of brain tissue evoke the re-experiencing of past events? There's nothing obvious here except that once again when you don't have an answer for the evidence, you shout, "Boo evidence!" Exactly how is stimulation of the brain supposed to provoke the recollection of memories in an independent consciousness? At the very least, it shows that the activity of consciousness is not independent of activity in the brain. You have the burden of proof required to show that consciousness and the brain are separate, and your claims about what NDEs show doesn't cut it. The experiences these people have shows too many anomalous characteristics and contradictions for it to be considered evidence. (For example, people seeing things that are impossible in NDEs, and doing things that are documented not to have happened, like conversing with the living.)

(April 3, 2017 at 9:14 am)Little Rik Wrote: And last...........The effects of drugs show correspondence between brain activity and mental activity.
“Finally, the experiential evidence for mind-brain dependence consists of the effects of several different types of drugs which predictably affect mental states.........


Nothing new in here.
Drugs force a chemical reaction in the brain and when the brain is affected also the consciousness is forced to put up with the crap and suffer.
Suffer and forced to open up creating a sense of temporary bliss at the expenses of course of damages
all over body-brain.

Funny how for the last three items, your response is that consciousness doesn't act like it's independent from the brain. In case your addled mind can't see it, that's evidence that they aren't independent. The law of parsimony again suggests that consciousness arises from the brain, not from some independent third party, consciousness, which is hypothesized to be independent, but is never actually seen as independent. And this car and driver analogy of yours is nothing but a bare assertion. The fact is, the car provides much of the function of transporting the driver, from the engine that provides power to the wheels that provide a rolling platform. In this same way, you're implicitly acknowledging that the brain provides many of the functions which permit consciousness to act as consciousness. There's no reason not to take that last step and suppose that the brain provides ALL of the functionality, including consciousness. Contrary to that suggestion and the evidence which even you admit doesn't attest to a separation in function between consciousness and brain, you have yoga dogma and your viewpoint on NDEs. The balance of evidence is against you.

Rik is that special kind of idiot that looks behind the mirror to see who's there.

Q:What is logic?

A:Something that is seldom tried by practitioners of spiritual traditions.

---

(April 3, 2017 at 1:57 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Rik is that special kind of idiot that looks behind the mirror to see who's there.

Puppies very quickly learn not to do that and soon ignore it altogether.  Had a cockateil though that never got tired of attempting to preen his mirror image only to immediately hold his own head out for preening when the mirror image reached to preen him.  Rick, what percentage cockateil do you have in your family?

Years ago, Sam and I were adopted by a cockatiel named Clyde, rescued from someone else. There was a Bonnie as well, but she had flown away long before we came on the scene. Since then, Clyde became very withdrawn and mainly sat on his perch, looking in his little mirror as if it was his lost companion. Even when we left his cage open, and took off the removable top section, he rarely left that mirror. He's a lot more active now though, but still defaults to that spot.

I'd rename him Rik, but he has a birdbrain intelligence. It'd be a downgrade.

Logic is thinking based on valid evidence and reason

(April 3, 2017 at 8:27 pm)Regina Wrote: Logic is thinking based on valid evidence and reason

Some people, and this is being generous to Rik, equate "logic" with, what seems to be, "common sense" for the one doing the evaluation.

The problem with that is, and we see it in all of Rik's posts, is that common sense is often times wrong. And worse, common sense is also very susceptible to confirmation bias. It is more than obvious that Rik's use of common sense always seems to confirm his existing beliefs. What a coincidence.

Humans live our lives mostly by inference and induction, which for the most part, is very successful in negotiating our daily lives. Today is similar to yesterday, situations we find ourselves in are similar to other situations, etc.

We think because this method of inference and induction is so successful to negotiating daily life, it must also work for other circumstances, like in support of existential claims. Problem for Rik is, it is a flawed method for his claims.

The problem for Rik is, he truly believes he is using logic, when, it is provable he is not.

He can't realise that common sense isn't particularly common and only rarely sensible.

(April 3, 2017 at 12:52 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(April 3, 2017 at 9:14 am)Little Rik Wrote: But let us see what this guy say........
First he say.............“We find that the greater the size of the brain and its cerebral cortex in relation to the animal body and the greater their complexity, the higher and more versatile the form of life”........so far so good but this prove nothing whether the consciousness is or is not a product of the brain.

The point he is making is that the larger the repertoire of mental behaviors, the larger the brain and cerebral cortex.  If these conscious behaviors were only dependent upon a disembodied consciousness, there would be no reason for the greater brain development, as according to your view, the brain isn't responsible for the complexity of your behavior.  It's evidence because it is consistent with these conscious behaviors being a function of the brain.  It is inconsistent with your notion that the consciousness is separate from the brain.

(April 3, 2017 at 9:14 am)Little Rik Wrote: After he goes........the developmental evidence for mind-brain dependence is that mental abilities emerge with the development of the brain; failure in brain development prevents mental development........here the guy guess and guess.
In fact is the other way around.
It is the consciousness mind that determine brain development.

Whenever you don't like a piece of evidence, you characterize it as a guess.  This is nothing but an emotional response to something you don't like, like saying, "Boo evidence!"  It's a transparent dodge to avoid answering the evidence.  In this case, the fact that failure in brain development results in failure of mental development is well documented.  It's not a guess.  What isn't documented is your assertion that the conscious mind determine brain development.  Beyond being a bare assertion, it makes no sense of the clinical data.  Do you have any evidence to support this?

(April 3, 2017 at 9:14 am)Little Rik Wrote: Again he goes........ Brain damage destroys mental capacities.
“Third, clinical evidence consists of cases of brain damage that result from accidents, toxins, diseases, and malnutrition that often result in irreversible losses of mental functioning (45). If the mind could exist independently of the brain, why couldn’t the mind compensate for lost faculties when brain cells die after brain damage? ........

Here the guy get lost in his guesses.
It is obvious that if you have an accident both brain and mind suffer.
The consciousness mind is stuck inside body-brain.
She can not leave her body-mind until death occur therefore she doesn't have any choice but suffer.
The same occur to you or me  when we have an accident.
We are stuck inside your car so if the car get smashed we also get injured.
Here the guy think that if the mind is independent to the brain such a mind should be able to compensate
for lost faculties.
How stupid is he.    
He doesn't realize that the separation occur ONLY when the body-brain die not before.
Before the consciousness is stuck inside the brain and in this situation she got to suffer and suffer.

Speaking of guesses, here you repeatedly emphasize that consciousness does not act independent of the brain.  That separation only occurs at death.  Since nobody has yet to come back from being dead, and the behavior of the combined consciousness-brain is indivisible, I'm wondering how you know that you have two entities, consciousness-brain, instead of just one, the brain.  Your answer is that NDEs prove that the consciousness is separate from the brain, but if anything is a guess, that is.  You draw your conclusions about NDEs based on how well you can make it fit your dogma, not based upon anything that you truly know.  NDEs aside, here you are admitting that consciousness-brain act as one, so there's no reason to speculate that they are separate and independent.  The law of parsimony indicates that the simplest solution is likely correct.  You add an independent consciousness based upon dogma and uncertain evidence from NDEs.  Whereas it is clear that if you lack parts of the brain, you lack certain abilities to think, it's not clear that NDEs can't occur in the brain after loss of blood flow to the brain.  So the balance lies with the connection which is certain, reinforced by parsimony: there is no separate consciousness aside from the brain.

(April 3, 2017 at 9:14 am)Little Rik Wrote: And more..........Experiments and measurements on the brain (EEG, stimulation of various areas) indicate a correspondence between brain activity and mental activity.
“Fourth, the strongest empirical evidence for mind-brain dependence is derived from experiments in neuroscience. Mental states are correlated with brain states; electrical or chemical stimulation of the human brain invokes perceptions, memories, desires, and other mental states (45).”.....

This is pretty obvious as the consciousness mind is stuck inside the brain.

Oh?  How does stimulation of brain tissue evoke the re-experiencing of past events?   There's nothing obvious here except that once again when you don't have an answer for the evidence, you shout, "Boo evidence!"  Exactly how is stimulation of the brain supposed to provoke the recollection of memories in an independent consciousness?  At the very least, it shows that the activity of consciousness is not independent of activity in the brain.  You have the burden of proof required to show that consciousness and the brain are separate, and your claims about what NDEs show doesn't cut it.  The experiences these people have shows too many anomalous characteristics and contradictions for it to be considered evidence. (For example, people seeing things that are impossible in NDEs, and doing things that are documented not to have happened, like conversing with the living.)  

(April 3, 2017 at 9:14 am)Little Rik Wrote: And last...........The effects of drugs show correspondence between brain activity and mental activity.
“Finally, the experiential evidence for mind-brain dependence consists of the effects of several different types of drugs which predictably affect mental states.........


Nothing new in here.
Drugs force a chemical reaction in the brain and when the brain is affected also the consciousness is forced to put up with the crap and suffer.
Suffer and forced to open up creating a sense of temporary bliss at the expenses of course of damages
all over body-brain.

Funny how for the last three items, your response is that consciousness doesn't act like it's independent from the brain.  In case your addled mind can't see it, that's evidence that they aren't independent.  The law of parsimony again suggests that consciousness arises from the brain, not from some independent third party, consciousness, which is hypothesized to be independent, but is never actually seen as independent.  And this car and driver analogy of yours is nothing but a bare assertion.  The fact is, the car provides much of the function of transporting the driver, from the engine that provides power to the wheels that provide a rolling platform.  In this same way, you're implicitly acknowledging that the brain provides many of the functions which permit consciousness to act as consciousness. There's no reason not to take that last step and suppose that the brain provides ALL of the functionality, including consciousness.  Contrary to that suggestion and the evidence which even you admit doesn't attest to a separation in function between consciousness and brain, you have yoga dogma and your viewpoint on NDEs.  The balance of evidence is against you.

You are floating in a sea of dogmas my dear.  

Do the right thing for God's sake.  
Start from the very beginning and go from there.
I know that this is impossible for an atheist but at least try and see if that works.

Start from the reincarnation point of view and from a consciousness that need to be reincarnated into a new body.
What body will she choose?
Actually the consciousness is not able to choose.
It is up to her karma so she will be forced to end up in a body-brain that is most suitable for her development whether is a human body an animal body or anything below that such as plant or pure matter.
That body will have to be able to fit and represent a parallelism with
such a consciousness.
Then the consciousness will be stuck in that body until death occur.
In this way the consciousness can not possibly be a product of the brain.
And is not even the other way around.
All it is is that the consciousness end up in a body-brain that is most suitable for her development.
It is like a piece of jigsaw puzzle that end up in the correct place.

At this stage the two go hand in hand.
As the consciousness progress also the brain follow and if the brain get damage then the consciousness
will also have to suffer.
When physical death will occur the consciousness will separate from the body and soon after will have to be reincarnated once again in a body-brain that will represent a parallelism with such a consciousness.
And the cycle of reincarnations will go on and on until that entity-consciousness will reach the apex of human emancipation.


The body-brain is the vehicle that allow the consciousness to go ahead toward the apex of human emancipation and a vehicle can not do anything without a mind that direct it to act.  


Evidence that the consciousness never die is given by thousand of NDEs.
On the other hand evidence for the contrary doesn't exist and never will.