Synopsis of Post #130: Rik insists Jor is hobbled by her alleged adherence to dogma and suggests that she "do the right thing for God's sake" by assuming that his dogmas about reincarnation and karma are true, followed by the 1,314th appeal to NDEs as evidence for his baseless claims.

Yeah, logic.

Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad. Are you sure your circuits are registering correctly? Your ears are green!

(April 4, 2017 at 1:19 pm)Cyberman Wrote: Logic is a little tweeting bird chirping in a meadow. Logic is a wreath of pretty flowers which smell bad. Are you sure your circuits are registering correctly? Your ears are green!

De Doo Doo Doo, De Da Da Da is all I want to say to you.

(April 4, 2017 at 12:03 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: Synopsis of Post #130:  Rik insists Jor is hobbled by her alleged adherence to dogma and suggests that she "do the right thing for God's sake" by assuming that his dogmas about reincarnation and karma are true, followed by the 1,314th appeal to NDEs as evidence for his baseless claims.

Yeah, logic.

Very good Cross.  

Now that I found in you the smart and intelligent person if you don't mind I ask you to produce evidence that
when the body die also the consciousness die.  
We all know how clever you are.  
Please Cross help LR to understand.
Give LR the evidence that the consciousness die when the body die.  
Please.  

Little Rick, you did good. My suggestion is sometimes a thread needs to die. I always end threads at a point.

You can response endlessly or once you've shown points, so people can be encouraged to read posts and conversation, don't make it that long long thread no one is going to read.

Nobody is going to read that word salad anyway.

(April 5, 2017 at 6:30 am)Little Rik Wrote:

(April 4, 2017 at 12:03 pm)Crossless1 Wrote: Synopsis of Post #130:  Rik insists Jor is hobbled by her alleged adherence to dogma and suggests that she "do the right thing for God's sake" by assuming that his dogmas about reincarnation and karma are true, followed by the 1,314th appeal to NDEs as evidence for his baseless claims.

Yeah, logic.

Very good Cross.  

Now that I found in you the smart and intelligent person if you don't mind I ask you to produce evidence that
when the body die also the consciousness die.  
We all know how clever you are.  
Please Cross help LR to understand.
Give LR the evidence that the consciousness die when the body die.  
Please.  

It's not my job to falsify your unfalsifiable beliefs. As for your favorite hobby horse, NDEs, Jor has dismantled you on that point in post after post and thread upon thread. The emptiness of your claims is evident to anyone who bothers to read it -- except you, of course. Find someone else to play. You're a bore.

So...

1. Materialistic endeavors cannot lead to permanent happiness
2. Therefore happiness must come from within.
3. Therefore god.

This is logic?

Not only do you not offer any new arguments... you're not even really offering any argument at all.

This thread is pointless.

(April 4, 2017 at 10:55 am)Little Rik Wrote: Evidence that the consciousness never die is given by thousand of NDEs.

Quote:(5) Melvin Morse reports an NDE where a young girl sees her teacher by her body during an OBE when her teacher is not actually there. This case also has other hallucinatory features, such as encountering doctors in an ostensibly transcendental realm:

[O]ne child.... could see her own body as doctors wearing green masks tried to start an IV. Then she saw her living teacher and classmates at her bedside, comforting her and singing to her (her teacher did not visit her in the hospital). Finally, three tall beings dressed in white that she identified as doctors asked her to push a button on a box at her bedside, telling her that if she pressed the green button she could go with them, but she would never see her family again. She pressed the red button and regained consciousness (Morse 68-69).

(6) Using open-ended questions, Morse also found a case where a child that was clinically dead reported that while she was 'above her body' looking down, "her mother's nose appeared flattened and distorted 'like a pig monster'" (Morse 67).

(7) The Fenwicks recount an NDE where the NDEr 'observed' a procedure that never took place during the heart bypass operation she underwent at the time:

[S]he left her body and watched her heart lying beside her body, bumping away with what looked like ribbons coming from it to hands. In fact, this is not what happens in a heart bypass operation, as the heart is left within the chest and is never taken outside the body (Fenwick and Fenwick 193).

The Fenwicks try to explain away this major discrepancy by pointing out that ribbons are indeed tied to arteries during an operation of this sort and by attributing the false perception to misidentification. However, it is difficult to see how a person truly out-of-body with vivid perceptual capabilities could confuse arteries (ribboned or not) with a beating heart lying next to her outside of her body. In the remainder of her experience this NDEr reported 'traveling' to a place that looked like an enormous silver 'airplane hangar' with tiny figures off in the distance, miles away.

(8) Other NDErs have reported seeing friends out-of-body with them who are, in reality, still alive and normally conscious. The Evergreen Study also recorded a clearly hallucinatory near-death experience after a major car accident:

Well, then I remember, not physical bodies but like holding hands, the two of us, up above the trees. It was a cloudy day, a little bit of clouds. And thinking here we go, we're going off into eternity... and then bingo, I snapped my eyes open and I looked over and he was staring at me [ellipsis original] (Lindley, Bryan, and Conley 110).

The authors of the study go on to write: "In this incident a woman had lost consciousness but her male companion had not. In the experience, she perceived the two of them in an out-of-body state, yet her friend never blacked out" (110).

https://infidels.org/library/modern/keit...crepancies

It's a simple fact, either NDEs are all real, or they're all hallucinatory.  You don't get to say that some are real, while some are not.  They are all the same type of event.  They're either ALL real, or they're ALL false.  You don't get to pick and choose and say that while a few are clearly hallucinatory, these others over here are clearly real.  Since there are documented NDEs that are clearly hallucinatory, the only logical conclusion is that they are all hallucinatory. What you touted as evidence is actually nothing of the sort. Just a bunch of hallucinatory experiences.

And with that, your so called "evidence" vanishes in a poof of smoke.  And since you have no other credible evidence, your entire worldview rests on nothing but dogma.

(April 4, 2017 at 10:55 am)Little Rik Wrote: On the other hand evidence for the contrary doesn't exist and never will.  

You've just been given evidence to the contrary.  So much for your "claim."

(April 5, 2017 at 10:18 am)MysticKnight Wrote: Little Rick, you did good. My suggestion is sometimes a thread needs to die. I always end threads at a point.

You can response endlessly or once you've shown points, so people can be encouraged to read posts and conversation, don't make it that long long thread no one is going to read.

I usually let a thread die when people stop posting more messages.
As far as people keep on making more comments I don't see why I should stop answering them.
If people write more comments that means that somebody must read the thread.  

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(April 5, 2017 at 5:59 pm)Jörmungandr Wrote:

(April 4, 2017 at 10:55 am)Little Rik Wrote: Evidence that the consciousness never die is given by thousand of NDEs.

Quote:(5) Melvin Morse reports an NDE where a young girl sees her teacher by her body during an OBE when her teacher is not actually there. This case also has other hallucinatory features, such as encountering doctors in an ostensibly transcendental realm:

[O]ne child.... could see her own body as doctors wearing green masks tried to start an IV. Then she saw her living teacher and classmates at her bedside, comforting her and singing to her (her teacher did not visit her in the hospital). Finally, three tall beings dressed in white that she identified as doctors asked her to push a button on a box at her bedside, telling her that if she pressed the green button she could go with them, but she would never see her family again. She pressed the red button and regained consciousness (Morse 68-69).

(6) Using open-ended questions, Morse also found a case where a child that was clinically dead reported that while she was 'above her body' looking down, "her mother's nose appeared flattened and distorted 'like a pig monster'" (Morse 67).

(7) The Fenwicks recount an NDE where the NDEr 'observed' a procedure that never took place during the heart bypass operation she underwent at the time:

[S]he left her body and watched her heart lying beside her body, bumping away with what looked like ribbons coming from it to hands. In fact, this is not what happens in a heart bypass operation, as the heart is left within the chest and is never taken outside the body (Fenwick and Fenwick 193).

The Fenwicks try to explain away this major discrepancy by pointing out that ribbons are indeed tied to arteries during an operation of this sort and by attributing the false perception to misidentification. However, it is difficult to see how a person truly out-of-body with vivid perceptual capabilities could confuse arteries (ribboned or not) with a beating heart lying next to her outside of her body. In the remainder of her experience this NDEr reported 'traveling' to a place that looked like an enormous silver 'airplane hangar' with tiny figures off in the distance, miles away.

(8) Other NDErs have reported seeing friends out-of-body with them who are, in reality, still alive and normally conscious. The Evergreen Study also recorded a clearly hallucinatory near-death experience after a major car accident:

Well, then I remember, not physical bodies but like holding hands, the two of us, up above the trees. It was a cloudy day, a little bit of clouds. And thinking here we go, we're going off into eternity... and then bingo, I snapped my eyes open and I looked over and he was staring at me [ellipsis original] (Lindley, Bryan, and Conley 110).

The authors of the study go on to write: "In this incident a woman had lost consciousness but her male companion had not. In the experience, she perceived the two of them in an out-of-body state, yet her friend never blacked out" (110).

https://infidels.org/library/modern/keit...crepancies

It's a simple fact, either NDEs are all real, or they're all hallucinatory.  You don't get to say that some are real, while some are not.  They are all the same type of event.  They're either ALL real, or they're ALL false.  You don't get to pick and choose and say that while a few are clearly hallucinatory, these others over here are clearly real.  Since there are documented NDEs that are clearly hallucinatory, the only logical conclusion is that they are all hallucinatory.  What you touted as evidence is actually nothing of the sort.  Just a bunch of hallucinatory experiences.

And with that, your so called "evidence" vanishes in a poof of smoke.  And since you have no other credible evidence, your entire worldview rests on nothing but dogma.

(April 4, 2017 at 10:55 am)Little Rik Wrote: On the other hand evidence for the contrary doesn't exist and never will.  

You've just been given evidence to the contrary.  So much for your "claim."

That is a load o'crap yog.

It is a fact that we are all different therefore God can not possibly show Him-Herself (no sex) in the same way to
everybody.
We carry different karma so the help that God give to one can not be the same to somebody else.
There are different stages of samadhi or bliss.
Why should we all experience the same level of bliss when someone deserve more or less than other people?

Your problem yog is that you go around with blinkers on your eyes.

One more problem yog.
Hallucinations happen when the brain is alive or not yet dead while NDEs come when the brain is dead.
Most of your examples do not state whether the guy was alive or dead at the time when the vision or the NDE happen so
it is impossible to know whether the people hallucinated or they had an NDE.


One more failing Yog.
NDEs do net necessary come with total bliss.
Take the case of Storm.
In the beginning Storm experienced a terrible feeling like hell to then go through a stage of pure bliss.
Why is that so?
God give these experiences to teach a lesson as well.
In this case Storm had to learn that by living like an idiot he was doing wrong so by see how bad he would feel in the real reality once his body die he learn not to do those bad things again.
Only after that God let him experience the bliss so many of your examples in which people experience
difficult situations may well be lessons that these people have to learn.


In other words.........................FAIL ONCE AGAIN YOG.  

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(April 5, 2017 at 4:07 pm)AceBoogie Wrote: So...

1. Materialistic endeavors cannot lead to permanent happiness
2. Therefore happiness must come from within.
3. Therefore god.

This is logic?

Not only do you not offer any new arguments... you're not even really offering any argument at all.

This thread is pointless.

Actually is the atheistic logic that is pointless.    

My logic works like this Ace..........by realizing that the material world doesn't offer any real progress the intelligent and smart person would automatically look within while the fool would keep on going around and around hoping that sooner or later the things turn around his way.
That is a gambler attitude not the smart and intelligent attitude.
Forget whether you may or may not find God by looking within.
The important thing is to try something else once you realize that the old way doesn't work.
This is LOGIC Ace.  

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(April 5, 2017 at 10:20 am)Jesster Wrote: Nobody is going to read that word salad anyway.

Oh, I see.......so you must have popped up in this thread by mistake isn't it?