Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 11, 2017 at 8:04 pm
(This post was last modified: May 11, 2017 at 8:06 pm by Edwardo Piet.)
I don't think anything exists outside time. Nothing existed before time. The whole concept of "before time" is logically incoherent. I'm sure the same can be said of space. Existence itself is temporal and spacial.
When something is existent it is true to say that it is there. The "is" part is temporal and the "there" part is spacial.
Posts: 11697
Threads: 117
Joined: November 5, 2016
Reputation:
43
RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 11, 2017 at 8:06 pm
(May 11, 2017 at 8:04 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I don't think anything exists outside time. Nothing existed before time. The whole concept of "before time" is logically incoherent. I'm sure the same can be said of space.
Indeed to say you exist outside of space is to say you exist nowhere . To say you exist outside of time is to say you exist no when .
Seek strength, not to be greater than my brother, but to fight my greatest enemy -- myself.
Inuit Proverb
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 11, 2017 at 8:07 pm
Exactly. Nowhere never=nonexistent.
Posts: 69248
Threads: 3759
Joined: August 2, 2009
Reputation:
259
RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 11, 2017 at 8:20 pm
You're talking about people who can delude themselves into believing just about anything.
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 11, 2017 at 8:20 pm
Yup!!
Posts: 30673
Threads: 2117
Joined: May 24, 2012
Reputation:
71
RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 12, 2017 at 7:01 am
(May 11, 2017 at 8:20 pm)Minimalist Wrote: You're talking about people who can delude themselves into believing just about anything.
This is a flaw in our species, it always has been even long before our written history. Our species again, gets mostly sold that which their parents pass down to them. If someone gets to you before you can form adult critical thinking skills it is far more likely that you will adapt the beliefs of your parents.
But it is the same reason humans fall for all sorts of crap, vampires, big foot, little green men, JFK, 9/11 conspiracies. It is why we had the dark ages, why Saudi Arabia and Iran are theocracies, and even why we have an Orange jackass in office. Fall for a utopia and you are hooked. I'd only give the west a little more credit because we value more anti monopoly concepts, but seems the far right worldwide is seeking to crush workers and make us indentured slaves.
Posts: 15284
Threads: 450
Joined: March 29, 2015
Reputation:
29
RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 15, 2017 at 8:21 am
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2017 at 8:25 am by Fake Messiah.)
(May 11, 2017 at 8:06 pm)Orochi Wrote: (May 11, 2017 at 8:04 pm)Alasdair Ham Wrote: I don't think anything exists outside time. Nothing existed before time. The whole concept of "before time" is logically incoherent. I'm sure the same can be said of space.
Indeed to say you exist outside of space is to say you exist nowhere . To say you exist outside of time is to say you exist no when .
Indeed. If God exists, he is omnipresent. To be transcendent (outside space and time), a being cannot exist anywhere in space. To be omnipresent, a being must exist everywhere in space. Hence it is impossible for a transcendent being to be omnipresent. Therefore, it is impossible for God to exist.
But this kind of tortured explanations from Christians of what god is and where he (yes although he lives in another dimension and what no God is always HE) is, does it not remind you of Carl Sagan's story of dragon living in his garage? Sagan claims he has dragon in his garage but whenever you want to prove it he just gives more tortured explanations.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Posts: 43162
Threads: 720
Joined: September 21, 2008
Reputation:
133
RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 15, 2017 at 8:48 am
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2017 at 8:51 am by Edwardo Piet.)
Well, they claim that he is omnipresent which includes being present both inside AND outside time and space.
But the part of him that exists inside is the only part that can interact in the actual world and the only part that has any actual existence or reality lol.
Saying God is also outside of time and space as well as inside it.... is rather like me saying that the side meal I'm having with my main course is nothing.... and someone replies "Oh so you mean you have no side meal with your main course?" and the response I give is "No, I do have a side meal it's just nothing." Lol.
Posts: 15284
Threads: 450
Joined: March 29, 2015
Reputation:
29
RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 15, 2017 at 2:50 pm
(This post was last modified: May 15, 2017 at 2:50 pm by Fake Messiah.)
(May 15, 2017 at 8:48 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Well, they claim that he is omnipresent which includes being present both inside AND outside time and space.
But the part of him that exists inside is the only part that can interact in the actual world and the only part that has any actual existence or reality lol. So what you are saying is that god is an invalid because only part of him is in "our dimension"? He can only use his left hand which is in "our dimension" while the rest of him is in other?
Needles to say for anyone having the least familiarity with religion, it goes without saying that such watered-down versions of faith are not held by most people, who accept instead a personal god who intervenes in the world. It's simple ignorance. Rather similar like some Christians here on forum claim that all Christians acknowledge evolution. They totally ignore even other Christians on this forum.
(May 15, 2017 at 8:48 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Saying God is also outside of time and space as well as inside it.... is rather like me saying that the side meal I'm having with my main course is nothing.... and someone replies "Oh so you mean you have no side meal with your main course?" and the response I give is "No, I do have a side meal it's just nothing." Lol. Yeah, perhaps but to me it is very like Carl Sagan claiming to have a dragon in his garage.
And also god of the gaps. Just moving god where we can't reach him yet. He used to be on high mountains, then sky, then another dimensions.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
Posts: 7677
Threads: 635
Joined: January 19, 2013
Reputation:
30
RE: Can prayer change God's perfect plan?
May 16, 2017 at 6:18 am
(This post was last modified: May 16, 2017 at 6:20 am by WinterHold.)
(May 15, 2017 at 8:48 am)Alasdair Ham Wrote: Well, they claim that he is omnipresent which includes being present both inside AND outside time and space.
But the part of him that exists inside is the only part that can interact in the actual world and the only part that has any actual existence or reality lol.
Saying God is also outside of time and space as well as inside it.... is rather like me saying that the side meal I'm having with my main course is nothing.... and someone replies "Oh so you mean you have no side meal with your main course?" and the response I give is "No, I do have a side meal it's just nothing." Lol.
If nothing can exist outside of time, then what is the singularity that gave birth to the big bang?
Since time is a quantity, things can happen before it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time
Quote:Time is the indefinite continued progress of existence and events that occur in apparently irreversible succession from the past through the present to the future.[1][2][3]
[/url]
Nothing is wrong scientifically, in saying that "something" began the existence of "events". They call it singularity; and the theory accepted by the mainstream is the big bang theory.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravitational_singularity
Quote:According to modern [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_relativity]general relativity, the initial state of the universe, at the beginning of the , was a singularity.
There is no time here. But it was proven that "something" can exist. Not material; not a body; not a Buddha; not a Ra, but a singularity. A point not affected by gravity; not affected by laws or rules. Ring a bell?
Nomads and Jesus told us so many times, before so long ago that such thing exists. Something free of laws; infinite; cannot be described.
Yes; stuff can exist outside of time?
Gravitational singularity?
|
