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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 1, 2017 at 10:59 am
Oh, it's a terrible mistake. It's just a story, they aren't our original parents, there were no such people. They're narrative devices meant to convey points of theology. The only way to coherently interpret that story is in the light of theology, such as we might find later..in another story, in John 1:1.
It's not biology, or history. I feel, sometimes, like the message of god gets lost in the story of god.... 
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Sin and the Blame Game
June 1, 2017 at 4:24 pm
(This post was last modified: June 1, 2017 at 4:57 pm by LadyForCamus.)
Okay…so based on the answers from our theists, the consensus is that god created us with free will in light of his pre-existing knowledge that many of us would choose sin over salvation. Fair enough. Perhaps I framed a false dichotomy in my OP, but walk through my thoughts with me here:
At some point in “time”, God decided he wanted to create beings for the purpose of love, and obedience. He decided it was important that these beings choose to love and obey him of their own free will. Why? If the only meaningful objective of our mortal lives is to love and obey god; if our only purpose is to serve, then what is the significance of free will? In what way does free will add depth or meaning to our experience, or to God’s? What practical difference is there between creatures created to love and serve, and creatures that love and serve out of fear of eternal torture? If God wanted servants, why not simply create servants? Free will seems completely superfluous to me.
In any case, granting God both omnipotence and omniscience for the sake of the argument only underlines my original point. God made a conscious decision to create us one particular way out of an unlimited array of possibilities (given his omnipotence). Then, knowing exactly how we would perform under this specific design; after seeing how many of us would fall short of his hopes, he followed through with that specific choice for us anyway. He made his decision based on his foreknowledge of ours. God was in total control of our destinies from the beginning. In that sense we were never free, and I see no just reason for being punished after the fact.
I apologize ahead of time; I haven't yet read through any posts from today, so if I missed something or repeated someone, sorry!
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 1, 2017 at 4:42 pm
Everyone wants to start in genesis. Well yeah, that's how we read books. Even if we read from right to left like the Japanese or some such, we still wouldn't start in the middle and jump around. The best way to find out the whole story is to stat at the beginning. Like going further back from the jewish holy book, and finding out where Yahweh really came from. His origins as a Canaanite war god in a pantheon ruled by a different god called El.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 1, 2017 at 5:06 pm
(June 1, 2017 at 7:46 am)Cyberman Wrote: (June 1, 2017 at 2:38 am)Huggy74 Wrote: If a doctor prescribed you medicine and told you that if you didn't take the medicine you'd die. Guess what you do? You'd take the medicine, which shows you're capable of obedience.
On the other hand, if a doctor prescribed something and warned me not to take it or else I'd die in a thousand years, guess what? I'd probably take it.
In fact, in this scenario it's actually another doctor giving a second opinion and saying the first doctor's full of shit. And correctly.
At the age of five, Skagra decided emphatically that God did not exist. This revelation tends to make most people in the universe who have it react in one of two ways - with relief or with despair. Only Skagra responded to it by thinking, 'Wait a second. That means there's a situation vacant.'
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 1, 2017 at 6:03 pm
We're discussing a topic about a God who knows all and can do all. It's pretty much impossible to come to a logical conclusion because we can't relate to how God views the situation. You can come to the conclusion that because God created us knowing that we would sin he is responsible for our sin. You would have to believe that while knowing that we have the power to make our own decisions as to the choices we make.
Even considering that God would be responsible for us sinning, he himself paid the price for our sins so that it isn't our sinfulness that causes our condemnation, but rather our choice to refuse his gift to us. Again, the choice is ours.
Finally, even if I come to believe that my sinfulness is God's fault how am I going to proceed from that point? God made me to be a sinner so he could redeem me and cause me to need to rely totally on him for salvation. Because of the love between him and me, I do my best to live without sinning, even though I sometimes fail in that effort. Or I can decide that I don't believe in him or just don't like him and not accept the offer.
(As far as the consequences of not accepting God's offer, I believe the bible teaches hell, but I don't believe it teaches that any person will be there for eternity. I'm currently trying to determine whether it teaches some will spend time there and after that will cease to exist or if they would still have the opportunity to accept salvation while in hell. But this is a matter for a different discussion.)
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 2, 2017 at 3:50 am
(This post was last modified: June 2, 2017 at 4:22 am by Fake Messiah.)
(June 1, 2017 at 6:03 pm)Lek Wrote: Also don't forget to check Koran because if it turns out they're right you'll go to their hell as well as other religioions books
(As far as the consequences of not accepting God's offer, I believe the bible teaches hell, but I don't believe it teaches that any person will be there for eternity. I'm currently trying to determine whether it teaches some will spend time there and after that will cease to exist or if they would still have the opportunity to accept salvation while in hell. But this is a matter for a different discussion.) Also don't forget to check Koran because if it turns out they're right you'll go to their hell as well as other religions books.
(June 1, 2017 at 9:24 am)Drich Wrote: Amen!
So what the problem is?
Is it because you feel like you are not apart of the fold? because you currently doubt God you can not be one of the predestined?
Did Thomas/doubting Thomas always believe? was He not one of the chosen? Did Paul/Saul of Tarsus always believe? was He not apart of the chosen?
who are you to say whether or not you have been chosen? Being chosen has nothing to do with what you believe or even want.
If the Bible is correct and Jesus really is the only way to heaven, then the whole system seems profoundly unfair. A baby born into a family of Christian evangelicals in a small South Carolina town, for example, would enjoy an extraordinary advantage over a baby born into a Muslim or Hindu family in Yemen or Mumbai. If one's choice of a god and religious affiliation truly does carry with it implications that determine an eternal fate after death, then why don't all people have equal access? Sure, many people around the world are aware of Christianity, more today than ever, but how difficult must it be for the majority of people in those societies where Christians are few or nonexistent? How tough must it be to go against the currents of family and culture to embrace a foreign religion? For most, it's probably not even a matter of emotional strength and determination. More likely they never even consider becoming Christians because of their upbringing by family and society, which imposed a different god belief on them. They have no compulsion to become Christians because they feel they are already doing the right thing.
teachings of the Bible are so muddled and self-contradictory that it was possible for Christians to happily burn heretics alive for five long centuries. It was even possible for the most venerated patriarchs of the Church, like St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas, to conclude that heretics should be tortured (Augustine) or killed outright (Aquinas). Martin Luther and John Calvin advocated the wholesale murder of heretics, apostates, Jews, and witches. - Sam Harris, "Letter To A Christian Nation"
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 2, 2017 at 11:13 am
(June 2, 2017 at 3:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: If the Bible is correct and Jesus really is the only way to heaven, then the whole system seems profoundly unfair. A baby born into a family of Christian evangelicals in a small South Carolina town, for example, would enjoy an extraordinary advantage over a baby born into a Muslim or Hindu family in Yemen or Mumbai. Actually you are right but not for the reason you think. It is unfair, because it is 10xs harder to become a Christian if your family has deep roots in Christianity. (Can't saved those who think they are saved.) That said, no one is 'born Christian.' and it is far far too easy to adopt one's father's faith rather than Ask Seek and knock for ourselves. (as commanded by Christ) Yet despite these many set backs the 'church' can be a great place to find and even raise young Christians. However it can also be a place that keeps souls from God as well.
It is far easier to have a minimal understanding of God and Christianity and find salvation than it is to be exposed to all that is known and retain one's faith.
Quote: If one's choice of a god and religious affiliation truly does carry with it implications that determine an eternal fate after death, then why don't all people have equal access?
Not all are called. Not all belong to God.
Quote:Sure, many people around the world are aware of Christianity, more today than ever, but how difficult must it be for the majority of people in those societies where Christians are few or nonexistent?
Is it difficult for atheists? No Is it difficult for Buddhist? no. Why? because they do not want the God of the bible they want what they have. their reward is found in this life. much like those of similar Abrahamic backgrounds who also fall short of salvation. As salvation is unique to Christianity and only Christians seek it.
Quote: How tough must it be to go against the currents of family and culture to embrace a foreign religion?
I did. did not speak with my family for 8 years.
Quote: For most, it's probably not even a matter of emotional strength and determination.
and again 'most' do not belong to God.
Quote:More likely they never even consider becoming Christians because of their upbringing by family and society, which imposed a different god belief on them. They have no compulsion to become Christians because they feel they are already doing the right thing.
Again, if the 'reward' your god is offering is good for you, then you are not going to want what the God of the bible is offering. And.. if your God does not exist and your faced with eternal service then true what is better? to be a slave in Heaven or to be obliterated by Hell?
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 2, 2017 at 1:45 pm
(June 2, 2017 at 11:13 am)Drich Wrote: (June 2, 2017 at 3:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: If the Bible is correct and Jesus really is the only way to heaven, then the whole system seems profoundly unfair. A baby born into a family of Christian evangelicals in a small South Carolina town, for example, would enjoy an extraordinary advantage over a baby born into a Muslim or Hindu family in Yemen or Mumbai. Actually you are right but not for the reason you think. It is unfair, because it is 10xs harder to become a Christian if your family has deep roots in Christianity. (Can't saved those who think they are saved.) That said, no one is 'born Christian.' and it is far far too easy to adopt one's father's faith rather than Ask Seek and knock for ourselves. (as commanded by Christ) Yet despite these many set backs the 'church' can be a great place to find and even raise young Christians. However it can also be a place that keeps souls from God as well.
It is far easier to have a minimal understanding of God and Christianity and find salvation than it is to be exposed to all that is known and retain one's faith.
Quote: If one's choice of a god and religious affiliation truly does carry with it implications that determine an eternal fate after death, then why don't all people have equal access?
Not all are called. Not all belong to God.
Quote:Sure, many people around the world are aware of Christianity, more today than ever, but how difficult must it be for the majority of people in those societies where Christians are few or nonexistent?
Is it difficult for atheists? No Is it difficult for Buddhist? no. Why? because they do not want the God of the bible they want what they have. their reward is found in this life. much like those of similar Abrahamic backgrounds who also fall short of salvation. As salvation is unique to Christianity and only Christians seek it.
Quote: How tough must it be to go against the currents of family and culture to embrace a foreign religion?
I did. did not speak with my family for 8 years.
Quote: For most, it's probably not even a matter of emotional strength and determination.
and again 'most' do not belong to God.
Quote:More likely they never even consider becoming Christians because of their upbringing by family and society, which imposed a different god belief on them. They have no compulsion to become Christians because they feel they are already doing the right thing.
Again, if the 'reward' your god is offering is good for you, then you are not going to want what the God of the bible is offering. And.. if your God does not exist and your faced with eternal service then true what is better? to be a slave in Heaven or to be obliterated by Hell?
I'll take being sane on Earth, which you've obviously given up.
"The last superstition of the human mind is the superstition that religion in itself is a good thing." - Samuel Porter Putnam
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 2, 2017 at 5:45 pm
(June 2, 2017 at 3:50 am)Fake Messiah Wrote: If the Bible is correct and Jesus really is the only way to heaven, then the whole system seems profoundly unfair. A baby born into a family of Christian evangelicals in a small South Carolina town, for example, would enjoy an extraordinary advantage over a baby born into a Muslim or Hindu family in Yemen or Mumbai. If one's choice of a god and religious affiliation truly does carry with it implications that determine an eternal fate after death, then why don't all people have equal access? Sure, many people around the world are aware of Christianity, more today than ever, but how difficult must it be for the majority of people in those societies where Christians are few or nonexistent? How tough must it be to go against the currents of family and culture to embrace a foreign religion? For most, it's probably not even a matter of emotional strength and determination. More likely they never even consider becoming Christians because of their upbringing by family and society, which imposed a different god belief on them. They have no compulsion to become Christians because they feel they are already doing the right thing.
The following verses lead me to believe that God gives the opportunity to know him to everyone.
Romans 1:18-20 New Living Translation (NLT)
God’s Anger at Sin
18 But God shows his anger from heaven against all sinful, wicked people who suppress the truth by their wickedness.[a] 19 They know the truth about God because he has made it obvious to them. 20 For ever since the world was created, people have seen the earth and sky. Through everything God made, they can clearly see his invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature. So they have no excuse for not knowing God.
If we all have no excuse for not knowing God, that means that the pathway is there for everyone. Since Jesus is God, if we know God then we know Jesus and vice versa.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 2, 2017 at 5:52 pm
The pathway isn't here for me regardless of whether or not I know god. Fail.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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