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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 7:34 pm
(This post was last modified: May 31, 2017 at 7:46 pm by Lek.)
A two year old doesn't know the difference between good and evil, but they know that if they disobey their parents they will be punished. Adam and Eve were aware that they were told not to eat the fruit of that tree and that they would be punished if they did. As far as I can see, the bible doesn't say that nothing died before Adam ate the fruit of the tree. I assume that they knew what death was or else why would God warn them about something that they had no way to understand? Anyway, since most christians believe he was talking about spiritual death, he was probably speaking of a loss of eternal life with him.
Omniscience doesn't mean that God makes things happen, but rather that he knows what will happen. He didn't cause Adam to disobey him, but Adam made that decision himself. Knowing that mankind would choose to turn against him, God already planned to redeem us when he created us. Why he wanted to do it that way, I don't know. That's his prerogative. That's why the bible states that God's plan of salvation was eternal. I believe that we each have it in us to accept or reject that gift. His plan was that anyone who wanted to be with him would be and those who didn't would not be. There was no "setting us up", but rather a basis to allow us to make that choice.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 7:38 pm
(May 31, 2017 at 7:18 pm)Mister Agenda Wrote: (May 31, 2017 at 5:54 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: I thought you guys claimed to know the bible better than thiests...
I don't know about theists in general, but it seems I know it better than you. Adam and Eve hid after they ate the fruit, gaining the knowledge of good and evil, not before. The whole point of the story is that they were innocent before they ate the fruit, not even ashamed of being naked. Once they ate it they covered themselves and when they heard God pretending to look for them, they panicked and hid because now they knew what they had done was wrong.
If you had been paying attention to what I've stated in the past on this subject, then you'd know that Adam and Eve didn't eat literal fruit...
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 8:07 pm
(This post was last modified: May 31, 2017 at 8:07 pm by Chad32.)
(May 31, 2017 at 7:33 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: (May 31, 2017 at 7:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: No, I say it's obviously wrong, because the story doesn't act that way. It acts like a day is a day. I'm not pulling this out of my ass.
Just because someone wrote about god's day being a thousand years, thousands of years after the original story of Eden, doesn't make it true. It's just some christian trying to make sense of a plothole in the story in a jewish holy book. *emphasis mine*
Except that the first place where it mentions specifically that 1 of Gods days = 1000 years is in Psalms, a Jewish holy book...
Not to mention I just told you right from the story of Eden that Adam was told he'd die within a day, he lived to be 930 which is within 1 day according to God's timeline.
Time is relative, God counts time differently from man.
(May 31, 2017 at 7:08 pm)Chad32 Wrote: Eating meat for sustenance is different from scapegoating your problems with a human sacrifice. I' not saying you should never kill something. I' just saying murdering someone doesn't make your past crimes go away.
Where in the bible does it state that murdering someone makes your past crimes go away?
The wages of sin is death, Christ sacrificed himself to rid the world of sin so that you may live. It's the same principal you live by on a daily basis, something has to die in order to sustain life.
If Psalms isn't in the new testament, then I don't know what their deal is. Days are treated as days elsewhere in the bible. If Adam lived to 930 after god told him he would die in a day, that just meant god lied.
And no, I don't live by that on a daily basis. I've never lived by that, because you're trying to equate unrelated things. What does washing away your sins mean, if it doesn't mean make them go away?
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 8:16 pm
It means, like a common renter, that you gt to skip out on the bill.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 9:18 pm
(This post was last modified: May 31, 2017 at 9:46 pm by LadyForCamus.)
(May 31, 2017 at 4:15 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: This " ideal" you speak of is love. Did not Jesus state that the greatest commandments were to love God with all your heart, and to love thy neighbor as thyself? Did he also not state that ALL the law and prophets hang on those two commandments?
I thought it was obedience, but it seems to me that the god of the Bible equivocates the two. God wanted total obedience, but failed to create humans capable of it. Again...this is god's failure, not ours.
Quote:What has God to do with your ability to love?
Well, that's an interesting question. If I am the product of a god's creation, then this god has literally everything to do with my abilities (or lack thereof) including my ability to love, and obey him.
(May 31, 2017 at 7:34 pm)Lek Wrote: A two year old doesn't know the difference between good and evil, but they know that if they disobey their parents they will be punished.
You would punish a two year old for disobedience? You're making my point for me, Lek. A two year old does not have the developmental capability to control his impulses and simply "obey". Is it fair to punish the child for failing to do something that he literally CANNOT do? That makes no sense.
Quote:Omniscience doesn't mean that God makes things happen, but rather that he knows what will happen. He didn't cause Adam to disobey him, but Adam made that decision himself. Knowing that mankind would choose to turn against him, God already planned to redeem us when he created us. Why he wanted to do it that way, I don't know.
So, again...his decisions, his responsibility. There is no such thing as "sin." If we are the end-product of his design, and the design was flawed (intentionally or not), then there is nothing needs redeeming.
Nay_Sayer: “Nothing is impossible if you dream big enough, or in this case, nothing is impossible if you use a barrel of KY Jelly and a miniature horse.”
Wiser words were never spoken.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
May 31, 2017 at 10:42 pm
(This post was last modified: May 31, 2017 at 10:44 pm by Lek.)
(May 31, 2017 at 9:18 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: You would punish a two year old for disobedience? You're making my point for me, Lek. A two year old does not have the developmental capability to control his impulses and simply "obey". Is it fair to punish the child for failing to do something that he literally CANNOT do? That makes no sense.
Who said that Adam and Eve were unable to keep from eating the fruit? They were totally able not to to taste it. They made a voluntary decision to eat the fruit after being clearly told not to and warned about the consequences.
Quote:So, again...his decisions, his responsibility. There is no such thing as "sin." If we are the end-product of his design, and the design was flawed (intentionally or not), then there is nothing needs redeeming.
The design was not flawed. He designed us with the ability to make decisions for ourselves. We were not made perfect, nor did he mean to make us perfect. If we were, he would just be making more of himself. Do you not want to be able to make decisions for yourself about your own actions? Even if we have a sinful nature, we have means to salvation from it provided by our creator himself.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 1, 2017 at 12:06 am
(This post was last modified: June 1, 2017 at 12:09 am by dyresand.)
god created good and evil...
there for god created sin..
he/she/it created both the light and dark
sin is not the fault of humanity
the fall of man is is not the fault of either adam or eve they were simply mindless puppets before
eating the apple. after eating the apple they had objective thoughts and realized good and evil
and only a truly despicable being would punish them. and one did.. so it's gods fault he had a plan
if anyone says he/she/it is would know ahead of time that would happen. and if he didn't he would be justified in his anger otherwise
the judgement doesn't fit the actions of two people eating from the tree of knowledge.
0 out of 10 bible god is a shit parent.
Atheism is a non-prophet organization join today.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 1, 2017 at 12:09 am
Quote:God with all your heart
Worthless sycophantism mixed with useless authoritarianism
Quote:love thy neighbor as thyself?
That's not love that patronization . True love is born of treating others how they wish to be treated .
Quote:Omniscience doesn't mean that God makes things happen, but rather that he knows what will happen. He didn't cause Adam to disobey him, but Adam made that decision himself. Knowing that mankind would choose to turn against him, God already planned to redeem us when he created us. Why he wanted to do it that way, I don't know.
Knowing something will happen that will lead to tons of needless suffering and doing nothing to prevent it makes you as guilty a perpetrator . The act of then later trying some half assed measure to fix the problemdoes not amends make. Nor responsibility absolve .
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 1, 2017 at 2:38 am
(May 31, 2017 at 9:18 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: (May 31, 2017 at 4:15 pm)Huggy74 Wrote: This " ideal" you speak of is love. Did not Jesus state that the greatest commandments were to love God with all your heart, and to love thy neighbor as thyself? Did he also not state that ALL the law and prophets hang on those two commandments?
I thought it was obedience, but it seems to me that the god of the Bible equivocates the two. God wanted total obedience, but failed to create humans capable of it. Again...this is god's failure, not ours.
Submission is borne by either love or fear...
God wanted children capable of love and love can only be given through free will, forcing someone to love isn't love.
(May 31, 2017 at 9:18 pm)LadyForCamus Wrote: Quote:What has God to do with your ability to love?
Well, that's an interesting question. If I am the product of a god's creation, then this god has literally everything to do with my abilities (or lack thereof) including my ability to love, and obey him.
Sounds like you prefer to be a robot.
If a doctor prescribed you medicine and told you that if you didn't take the medicine you'd die. Guess what you do? You'd take the medicine, which shows you're capable of obedience.
You're right about one thing, you don't have the ability to achieve perfect love, since that love is God's love ('Agape' in Greek), and can only come from God.
God wrote you a prescription to obtain perfect love which is to repent, and be baptized (in the name of Jesus Christ), and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit, have you taken that prescription? If not, then you cannot blame God for your shortcomings.
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RE: Sin and the Blame Game
June 1, 2017 at 3:41 am
(This post was last modified: June 1, 2017 at 3:51 am by The Grand Nudger.)
I don't think that anyone is telling you that they prefer to be a robot, or that they prefer to be anything other than what they are, Huggy....I think that people are questioning the concept and application of "justice", as purportedly engaged in by your god - particularly considering the nature of what we are..another topic that "god" bitches about at length, despite being the very thing that made us this way in the first place...with foreknowledge of the result, at some point in the course of a 1k year "day"....allegedly, lol.
God made me such, for example..that I do not believe in him, and wouldn't "take the medicine" even if I did, and if it were offered. Just can't. I was made with the ability to have an insurmountable moral objection to christianity. That might not have been one of his most clever moments.
I am the Infantry. I am my country’s strength in war, her deterrent in peace. I am the heart of the fight… wherever, whenever. I carry America’s faith and honor against her enemies. I am the Queen of Battle. I am what my country expects me to be, the best trained Soldier in the world. In the race for victory, I am swift, determined, and courageous, armed with a fierce will to win. Never will I fail my country’s trust. Always I fight on…through the foe, to the objective, to triumph overall. If necessary, I will fight to my death. By my steadfast courage, I have won more than 200 years of freedom. I yield not to weakness, to hunger, to cowardice, to fatigue, to superior odds, For I am mentally tough, physically strong, and morally straight. I forsake not, my country, my mission, my comrades, my sacred duty. I am relentless. I am always there, now and forever. I AM THE INFANTRY! FOLLOW ME!
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